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Here's a situation...

  
 
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Lukie
Old 03-12-2006, 07:47 PM     Post subject: Here's a situation... #1 (permalink)  
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 This hand isn't real, and the idea came from a 2p2 thread.

NL200 full ring.

BB has $1,000. SB has $500. Hero covers. This trio is very solid and has logged many hands together. All are tight multi-tablers, and let's commend hero on his excellent seat selection. Steals have a 90%+ success rate from this seat.

Hero opens OTB $8 with Ad Jd. 3 to the flop. $24.

Flop: Kd Jc Ts

Checks through. They should be suspicious.

Turn: Qd

SB leads $20. BB makes it $70. Hero makes it $1,000...

obvious right?
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underminedsk
Old 03-12-2006, 08:02 PM #2 (permalink)  
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yes get it in while everyone still just has the nut straight with no flush possiblity.
online br: $14,000, @400NL full ring, 100NL 6 max
 
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Warpe
Old 03-12-2006, 08:04 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Warpe is a jewel in the roughWarpe is a jewel in the roughWarpe is a jewel in the roughWarpe is a jewel in the rough
 The logic being that this will be interpreted as a steal attempt and will therefore induce a call?



 
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Lukie
Old 03-12-2006, 08:06 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
yes get it in while everyone still just has the nut straight with no flush possiblity.
yes

Quote:
The logic being that this will be interpreted as a steal attempt and will therefore induce a call?
A steal here is blatantly terrible. And that's an understatement.

The logic being that it's possible that two other players also have the nuts and aren't going anywhere. You have the nuts with an even nuttier redraw, a situation that comes up routinely in omaha but rarely in hold'em.
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Pelion
Old 03-12-2006, 11:11 PM #5 (permalink)  
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hooray for the freeroll.
gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
 
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bdawg56kg
Old 03-12-2006, 11:21 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Freeroll baby!!! The real question is, if you're BB and have the ace, is it correct/+EV to call here?

If effective stacks are 10k, then I'm not so sure pushing turn is a better move than say raising to 2-3k. Hrmmmm...
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sejje
Old 03-12-2006, 11:46 PM #7 (permalink)  
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This is just a sweet situation. You can't lose, and you can win 1500 20% of the time.

I'd definitely get it all in here where they can't really fold...if the diamond comes they could find a fold.

As far as the BB folding? Maybe it's correct, but I don't think he could do it.

I guess you could lose to a boat, but I don't think they're terrible enough to get the money in with a set or 2 pair here.
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nutsinho
Old 03-12-2006, 11:57 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 I am keenly aware of this type of situation when it occurs and all solid 200NL+ players should be aware as well. Bumping it up to $250-300 is probably the best play against good players.
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johnny_fish
Old 03-13-2006, 12:12 AM #9 (permalink)  
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You should try to induce a mistake of a set. Raise to 300.

edit: slightly different situation (the Rippy is the nuts )

** Game ID 713690797 starting - 2006-03-09 01:00:39
** No Frontiers [Hold 'em] (2.00|4.00 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money

- jodezza sitting in seat 1 with $142.00
- Mofflowis sitting in seat 2 with $410.20
- johnny291281 sitting in seat 3 with $421.00 [Dealer]
- letme sitting in seat 4 with $262.00 [Sitting out]
- Weelay sitting in seat 5 with $322.90
- HighHeat sitting in seat 6 with $426.60
- Given sitting in seat 7 with $400.00
- Awebberfan sitting in seat 8 with $427.70
- GETM sitting in seat 9 with $400.00 [Sitting out]
- jj71hh sitting in seat 10 with $448.10

Weelay posted the small blind - $2.00
HighHeat posted the big blind - $4.00
** Dealing card to johnny291281: Ace of Spades, 4 of Spades
Given folded
Awebberfan called - $4.00
jj71hh folded
jodezza folded
Mofflowis folded
johnny291281 called - $4.00
Weelay called - $4.00
HighHeat checked

** Dealing the flop: 6 of Hearts, 3 of Spades, 5 of Hearts
Weelay checked
HighHeat checked
Awebberfan bet - $8.00
johnny291281 called - $8.00
Weelay called - $8.00
HighHeat called - $8.00

** Dealing the turn: 2 of Spades
Weelay checked
HighHeat bet - $44.00
Awebberfan folded
johnny291281 called - $44.00
Weelay raised - $132.00
HighHeat went all-in - $374.60
johnny291281 went all-in - $365.00
Weelay went all-in - $180.90
Weelay shows: 4 of Hearts, 5 of Diamonds
HighHeat shows: Jack of Spades, 4 of Clubs

** Dealing the river: Jack of Hearts
johnny291281 wins $327.90 from the main pot
johnny291281 wins $424.00 from side pot 1
Weelay wins $327.90 from the main pot
HighHeat wins $327.90 from the main pot
HighHeat wins $424.00 from side pot 1

End of game 713690797
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r8ed
Old 03-13-2006, 02:00 PM #10 (permalink)  
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An option:
Raise it $400 (under SB's stack) so the SB pushes. BB will call or push (or fold?). If BB calls, you put him all-in as he's partially pot committed. However, this may be an obvious play as I'm sure those opps know what you are doing and if they don't hold the nut straight, they may let it go. Pushing may be better because it looks like you don't want a call.
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arkana
Old 03-13-2006, 02:09 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r8ed
An option:
Raise it $400 (under SB's stack) so the SB pushes. BB will call or push (or fold?). If BB calls, you put him all-in as he's partially pot committed. However, this may be an obvious play as I'm sure those opps know what you are doing and if they don't hold the nut straight, they may let it go. Pushing may be better because it looks like you don't want a call.
I agree with raising less, very few solid players will call off 500bbs there without really thinking it through (and realising what you are up to).
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Renton
Old 03-13-2006, 02:19 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 villain calls with KK

board pairs on the river.

*Edited for 25nl*
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swiggidy
Old 03-13-2006, 04:21 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 What is the max rake for 200NL. If it's 5% -> $5 I guess it's not an issue, but if it's bigger does that affect your decision?
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Renton
Old 03-13-2006, 04:24 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 typically 3 bucks. That wouldn't be much of a factor in this case since you rake in 1500 every 1 in 5 cases (whereas the total rake over all five cases would be about 15 bucks)
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Fnord
Old 03-13-2006, 04:27 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Easy push, you have the nuts with a freeroll. Very few players are aware enough to think they're being freerolled not to push here as Ax is gonna insta-call.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Renton
Old 03-13-2006, 04:33 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Very few players are aware enough to think they're being freerolled not to push here as Ax is gonna insta-call.
Are you saying you'd lay down to a push here, if you were villain?
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nutsinho
Old 03-13-2006, 05:02 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Very few players are aware enough to think they're being freerolled not to push here as Ax is gonna insta-call.
Are you saying you'd lay down to a push here, if you were villain?
It's such a fucking obvious laydown against a solid player...
My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
 
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Renton
Old 03-13-2006, 05:04 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Very few players are aware enough to think they're being freerolled not to push here as Ax is gonna insta-call.
Are you saying you'd lay down to a push here, if you were villain?
It's such a fucking obvious laydown against a solid player...
Given the tiny pot, yes I can see laying this down. But if I have a substantial amount of my stack invested in the pot and a situation like this arises, I cannot ever see laying this down.
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Fnord
Old 03-13-2006, 05:12 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Very few players are aware enough to think they're being freerolled not to push here as Ax is gonna insta-call.
Are you saying you'd lay down to a push here, if you were villain?
It's such a fucking obvious laydown against a solid player...
Sure, when thinking players don't have money involved and all of the time in the world to make a decision. In real-time, almost everyone in any game I've played in makes that call.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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poskid_1982
Old 03-13-2006, 05:16 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Renton
Quote:
Given the tiny pot, yes I can see laying this down. But if I have a substantial amount of my stack invested in the pot and a situation like this arises, I cannot ever see laying this down.
C0rrect Renton...I think that the amount invested must be thought about before you make that call. But if it's like this hand where your villain pushes that many bb's at you if your villain is solid calling could be a huge mistake. Laying this down is situational...Almost entirely dependant upon stack sizes. But I also feel that when the stacks arent exceedingly large comparatively then the mistake becomes smaller and therefore the risk manageable.

PK
Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
 
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r8ed
Old 03-13-2006, 05:18 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Very few players are aware enough to think they're being freerolled not to push here as Ax is gonna insta-call.
Are you saying you'd lay down to a push here, if you were villain?
It's such a fucking obvious laydown against a solid player...
Sure, when thinking players don't have money involved and all of the time in the world to make a decision. In real-time, almost everyone in any game I've played in makes that call.
If both guys have an ace. What if one of these guys has a set or two pair? Are they calling an all-in? That's why I suggested the alternative.

But pushing is probably the best still because it looks more desperate than calculated.
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Miffed22001
Old 03-13-2006, 05:47 PM #22 (permalink)  
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 i like to push here just to make sure i get the hand counted for rake and my bonus whoring :P
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Les_Worm
Old 03-13-2006, 09:14 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sejje
This is just a sweet situation. You can't lose
You could lose. Its not very likely at all but its possible. A donk call w/ a set and the board pairing would make you cry. I know these players weren't classified as "donks" but just remember you are not invincible here. I'm definately getting all my chips in here everytime.
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Iconoclastic
Old 03-13-2006, 10:41 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Against Tight players, this is optimal. Against looser players who will call without odds with two pair or set you should raise to as much as you think they'll call while giving them bad odds. You must also get away on the River if it pairs.
What's the difference between a large cheese pizza and a poker player?

A large cheese pizza can feed a family of four.
 
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