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Micro2Macro
Old 06-14-2009, 05:22 PM     Post subject: Here's an interesting spot #1 (permalink)  
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 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($16.20)
UTG ($10.90)
UTG+1 ($22.55)
MP1 ($1.35)
Hero (MP2) ($10.35)
CO ($9.85)
Button ($10)
SB ($15.15)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 2 folds, MP1 bets $0.30, Hero raises to $0.90, CO calls $0.90,

So typically, what do YOU think CO's range is?

Assume unknown standard 10nl/25nl player.
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Carroters
Old 06-14-2009, 06:00 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 Bit vague imo, but if we assume by typical 10NL/25Nl player oyu mean a taggish regular one. Then I'd go with [99 - QQ, AQs, AK] This is just a rough estimate from my experience of playing 25NL.

Btw dude, why the hell you still playing 10NL? From what I've seen I'd expect you to be at least 25NL by now.

 
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lockpull
Old 06-14-2009, 06:17 PM #3 (permalink)  
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If MP1 shoves over are you both just forced to call b/c he has almost no stack left. If yes, then I would say he could be doing this with ATs+, 55+. If MP1 shoveing does open you to reraise then I think it would be tighter like carroters range except I think he flats KK-AA sometimes too.


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JKDS
Old 06-14-2009, 06:39 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 [quote="Carroters" From what I've seen I'd expect you to be at least 25NL by now.[/quote]

see m2m, see!!!!! I don told u.

carrots, i think ur range is way too tight. CO can easily be doing this with all pairs <QQ, and if he took his time with the call he might be doing this with QQ+. sc's can be in there depending on if CO is a calling station, which is typical of a 10nl player :P, and he likely also has some broadway type hands. QQ+ and AK,AQ type hands are usually going to be a small part of his range here.

in this total general vacuum, id lean towards that...but we need to know something about CO if we want to get anymore accurate...like if he is of the other 50% of 10nl players that are tight/passive as opposed to loose/passive, then the range changes a bit.
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Sir Pawnalot
Old 06-14-2009, 07:51 PM #5 (permalink)  
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My initial thought was AQs+, + most PPs.

But I have seen many ridiculous calls in these spots too. Some people cant lay down any sooooted cards, others think KJ is too strong to lay down. But typically I would go with my first thought here unless I had some info.
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Hoopy
Old 06-14-2009, 08:13 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 My range is likely a little wide, [55-JJ,KJs,KQs,QJs,ATo-AQo].
 
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Old 06-14-2009, 09:10 PM #7 (permalink)  
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well his mostly likely hands are QQ and AK
add more hands as necessary
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siltstrider
Old 06-14-2009, 10:23 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Why isn't it AK, QQ-? He's getting slightly better than 10-1 for set odds, and you're likely at the top of your range since nobody is going to isolate a shorty as a bluff. If he hits his set, stacks are going in.

This makes me wonder if I am I wrong to play QQ for set value when I see a raise and a 3bet in front of me. I've got queens, so why stack off if the other guy is 3betting AA, KK, AK? QQ is about the same as any other pocket pair here, since he's setmining, right?

If CO isn't setmining, he should be folding his queens because he's behind your KK+, AKo, AKs. That leaves AK for him to flat. Unless he thinks you would try to get a shorty to stack off when you have TT+. What does CO think of you?
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revolvingiris
Old 06-14-2009, 10:24 PM #9 (permalink)  
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This is a bit of a trick question as we have no idea what his stats are. Idk if there are enough "typical" 10nl players to create a solid stereotype other than they are just bad.

My range on CO minus reads/stats:
22+, Axs+, KQo+, QJs+, probably some suited connectors as well.
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siltstrider
Old 06-14-2009, 10:26 PM #10 (permalink)  
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They'll setmine in situations (that is, without odds since the shorty is going to shove a pretty good % of the time) like this with 22+, as far as I can tell.
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nish81
Old 06-14-2009, 10:40 PM #11 (permalink)  
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I'd guesstimate, maybe, K8s+, Q10s+, A10s+, A8o+, 55+, but not AA, KK, or AKs. Well, maybe AKs. It's a bit hard to judge though, with no other information
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Old 06-15-2009, 12:19 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 It depends, and asking a question like this with the player as a complete unknown is pretty boring and not likely to help anyone learn much of anything.
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Fnord
Old 06-15-2009, 01:06 AM #13 (permalink)  
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QQ-TT, AQ, AK or something like that. Maybe a slow played AA.

Soooo player dependent. However for tighter players it's a pretty tight range.
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Micro2Macro
Old 06-15-2009, 01:58 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
Bit vague imo, but if we assume by typical 10NL/25Nl player oyu mean a taggish regular one. Then I'd go with [99 - QQ, AQs, AK] This is just a rough estimate from my experience of playing 25NL.

Btw dude, why the hell you still playing 10NL? From what I've seen I'd expect you to be at least 25NL by now.
heh, I do play 25nl. I was playing some 10nl last night because I had already played 25nl earler in the day and I was a bit tired/not sure if I would play my best.

question wasn't intended to have a straightforward answer, like it is of course pretty vague. I just wanted to see what everyone's ideas were in this spot on how they would react to someone in position coldcalling their 3bet without any other information on the player.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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Lucothefish
Old 06-15-2009, 09:51 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 In a vacuum this is any PP. From the CO's point of view the implied odds of hitting a set are high based on the strength of your 3bet.
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Micro2Macro
Old 06-15-2009, 11:23 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucothefish
In a vacuum this is any PP. From the CO's point of view the implied odds of hitting a set are high based on the strength of your 3bet.
this is interesting.

how would you play any pocket pair versus my 3bet in this spot Luco?


Edit to make the question worth while:

Assume you have 1,000 hands on me and have the following HUD stats:

14/11/2.5 33% ATS 3bet%: 3.8

Whether it's relevant or not, you've seen me 4bet fold to a 3bet from the blinds before. This is your only note on me besides knowing that I'm not too tricky postflop or w/e.

How would you proceed with 22+ here assuming you know nothing about the open raiser?
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Lucothefish
Old 06-16-2009, 08:50 AM #17 (permalink)  
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 I'd look at the open raiser's stack and realise that even if he shows the best hand I'll make more off you with the second best hand. So it comes down to my thoughts on you.

MP1's stack size makes it less likely that you're 3bet bluffing. Unless you're using him as cheap advertising then you likely have a hand here, even if it is a little light. I'd only continue here with something big (unless I had a read that you marry big PP's so I could setmine), but don't credit CO for being able to think this way. If he is setmining then it's likely 'set or forget'.
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Old 06-16-2009, 10:59 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Lucothefish
In a vacuum this is any PP. From the CO's point of view the implied odds of hitting a set are high based on the strength of your 3bet.
not true because AK is in your range, so you end up folding his pp out on the flop and folding to a raise when you don't hit an ace or a king

you also fold hands like KK on ace high flops to a raise
so you play for stacks less than 1/2 of the time, and sometimes you'll fold QQ overpair because you can hand read
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Lucothefish
Old 06-16-2009, 11:12 AM #19 (permalink)  
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 Do you think the CO is able to figure that out?

I HAZ PP, LOLZ I SETMIEN
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Old 06-16-2009, 11:20 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Do you think the CO is able to figure that out?

I HAZ PP, LOLZ I SETMIEN
I counter that with, lol CO has heard of setmining?
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Old 06-16-2009, 11:20 AM #21 (permalink)  
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 ...I fold to your reraise sir, nh
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Old 06-16-2009, 11:22 AM #22 (permalink)  
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:23 AM #23 (permalink)  

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my range is JJ QQ KK AQ AK
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Old 06-17-2009, 09:40 AM #24 (permalink)  
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my range is JJ QQ KK AQ AK
actually more AA than KK
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Carroters
Old 06-17-2009, 10:48 AM #25 (permalink)  
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 My range is all da sooted 3wee gappurzz.

 
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