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07-14-2005, 05:51 AM Post subject: Help playing JJ

#1 (permalink)

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1. It's usually not an overpair to the flop.
2. Trip jacks come as often as trips to any pocket pair.
3. Dies to overpairs

That means it's not nearly as strong as the "big" pairs

What's good about it:

1. Sometimes higher than your opponent's kicker
2. Blocks the straight so it's 57% against AK
3. Is sometimes a higher pair to someone else's smaller pair
4. Dominates AJ

All in all, it's a weird hand

I raised half my chips in a freeroll deciding to push it no matter what flop with jacks. I got three callers (wtf?) and one overcard on the flop. Pushed it on the flop after one guy minibet, lost to... trip sixes... the guy took forever to call my all-in with them too XD

Any better way to play them? The blinds are 1/10 of my chipstack anyway in the freerolls.

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dstir2

07-14-2005, 08:28 AM

#2 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Lawrence, KS

Posts: 144

I too, used to have trouble with this hand, but now, it's one of my most profitable thanks to a few approach changes I made. I'm a NL ring gamer, so this is the setting for how I play them. In every position, limpers or not, I raise as if I have AA or KK. JJ is incredibly sensitive to over cards, so throwing out a 10-12XBB (10 if no limpers, more like 12 with some limpers)bet is making the others pay the price to see the flop w/ overcards.

What I also like about raising this much, is that it provokes a re-raise 95% of the time to higher pairs wanting to protect themselves, making it easy for you to read flop textures once it is dropped. (if you are re-raised the minimum amount, most likely call, if its more, you should probably fold.) After the flop, unless you hit your trips JJJ w/ a rainbow flop, make a continuation bet of 1/2 to 3/5 the pot, even if there are overcards. If called, play cautiously from then on out. If raised after the continuation bet, you should probably fold if you have ruled out pot odds helping you out(i.e. maybe a possible straight draw).

While this is a lot of money to put into a hand preflop, I feel its needed in order to keep from losing an entire stack. You won't believe how many ppl I find calling this bet w/ 88, or ak, only to be weak after the flop. And when you do hit your jack, especially w/ overcards, it is an extremely deceiving hand if slowplayed. I have really turned my fortunes around with this hand now that I have made these changes. I'm no longer afraid to hold it anymore like I used to! Give it a try, and see what you think.

Oh. and one last thing. The chances of a player holding a higher pair than your JJ aren't that good, so don't discount them as an instant inferior pair preflop. There are very strong if played correctly.

Greedo017

07-14-2005, 11:12 AM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

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i raise JJ most of the time in an unraised pot. If someone before me has raised I just limp it for sets.

i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch

Drewbie

07-14-2005, 01:25 PM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 88

JJ is one of my favorite "sleeper" hands as well.
When that third Jack hits, no one seems to think, in 25NL anyways, that you would have raised that much preflop with them, they will more likely put you on QQ-KK-AA-AK.

If someone bets hard when overcards come out though.... you have a decision to make.

Depending on the player, I typically fold in that situation unless I hit my set. If I hit my set though, it's time to get paid.

xxDFOCxx

07-14-2005, 01:35 PM

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Canada

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like greed, i like to raise them when the pot is unraised.

Depending of the raise before me, i might reraise a bit or call.

You can have lot of flop without AKQ. When you hit J on the flop your in business. If there is no AKQ but the flop look dangerous (draws) I bet hard to see who's there.

But like they say, JJ, can't fold them, can't win with them

Rondavu

07-14-2005, 02:21 PM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 3,053

People play the Jakes different ways. It's almost better in a tournament than in ring because it's the best high level blind stealing hand.

The bottom line with Jakes is to achieve isolation if you play them strong. Sometimes I raise them large from early position representing AA with a larger than life raise. Sometimes I limp them early to surprise top pair on a rag board. I know which one to choose based on the table texture. On a tough tight table, I represent AA with the big raise, where as on a loose table I limp it knowing that a big raise might be multicalled, and a top pair of 9's with A kicker won't know well enough to let go and will pay me. Also, with so many people in hands on a loose table, you can effectively use relative position. In other words, you can check a rag board 5-6 handed, and feel confident someone will bet while you hold the best hand and allow you to check raise to protect your hand.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

Rondavu

07-14-2005, 02:25 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 3,053

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedo017

i raise JJ most of the time in an unraised pot. If someone before me has raised I just limp it for sets.

This seems weak to me. If someone raises before you, then you gotta reraise and isolate with position. Represent the flop if checked to no matter what hits the board.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

underminedsk

07-14-2005, 03:27 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jul 2005

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Ill have to think about my JJ play. In ep, I always limp it in, and call raises. In LP I play one of two ways. If it looks like its going to be a huge multiway flop, I value raise as much as I think I can get away with and still have a ton of people see the flop. On the other hand, if I think I can isloate with a normal raise, I do that instead, and drop the continuation bet on the flop, just like most other LP raised hand, unless the board is just so nasty that I have to check.

But out of position, I mostly play jacks for the set and check raise alot on rag flops.

I'm not really sure what I think yet about putting down a 10-12x bb raise from ep with jacks, but ill have to think about it. Do you think I'm losing out on potentially bigger pots by playing my jacks for the set from EP?

online br: $14,000, @400NL full ring, 100NL 6 max

studboyjoe

07-14-2005, 04:23 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight

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Posts: 130

raise, even in early position, a healthy amount to isolate against one opponent. Against several limpers, the likelihood that any overcard that flops will be in one of 3-5 opponents hands is probably very high and you only will win with a set.

that said, other than a continuation bet on the flop, i proceed very carefully when an overcard flops and there is resistance. I don't want to get caught on those JJ "fishhooks"!

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Rondavu

07-14-2005, 05:09 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Raising 10-12x is a little much. I like 6-7x in EP. However, as I stated earlier, I don't use them like aces if the potential callers of an AA representation raise are too stupid to put me on aces anyway. That would be out thinking yourself. Make sure anyone calling is calling to flop strong or get out thinking you might have the rockets.

It's very important to make sure if you're going to play them like aces, that your opponents see and recognize your betting pattern as aces. Otherwise you won't get the top pair Queens or Kings to consider folding.

If your table is even slightly less than tight, you don't want to pull this "move", as it is a "move" geared towards a specific table texture. It's not appropriate for whenever, especially at lower limits like typical 10-25NL tables. I have done it at these limits and had it work beautifully, but it's very risky.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

Checkways

07-14-2005, 07:07 PM

#11 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 249

I will raise a little bigger (4xBB is my standard raise so I tend to do 5-7) with JJs depending on the number of limpers already. I do vary my raises enough to get away with this.

What I'm really hoping for is for someone to raise first so I can reraise and isolate. In early position on an aggressive table I may even limp in the hopes that someone will raise and I can reraise them. If no one raises then at least I haven't invested much into this pot. So if overcards come out I'll just check fold.

It's a strong enough hand to feel confident in and therefore you make them look bigger than they are.

TalentedTom

07-16-2005, 01:32 PM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Toronto

Posts: 289

With JJ, on most flops there should actually not be any overcards, especially if your opponent calls you with something like AK, KQ, AQ, then the chances for overcards appearing are that much less. JJ and TT are very profitable hands, and I play them preety much the same way ( they have very similar EV) If you are the aggresor and come out betting 4-6xBB preflop and make a 6-8xBB raise after flop even if you see a A K or Q you will win more than half the time making it a profitable play picking up a couple of BB's. You most likey wont win any big pots with this unless you make your trips and your opponent hits his card, for example he has AK, you with JJ, flop comes A J X.
But you should at least be more confident with your JJ or TT they are very powerfull hands and pick up most pots unimproved.

Tom.S

a500lbgorilla

07-16-2005, 05:00 PM

#13 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

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Posts: 8,379

In ep: limp-call. Try to set. Lead out as an overpair fold to a raise.
In mp: You could make a case for limping behind other limpers and trying to set OR raising ep limpers becuase they are probably limping with lower pairs.
In lp: Raise (sometimes reraise to isolate) to thin the field. Bet any flop (op dependant).

Remember, you can always just limp to set with JJ in any position if you like.

-'rilla

Greedo017

07-16-2005, 07:59 PM

#14 (permalink)

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i don't see limping to a raise as weak with jacks. jacks are just one of those marginal hands. I did nothing but limp with jacks for a while, and i don't really think i won any less because of it. if i'm going to rely on repping aa, i'd rather do it with 47o and save JJ for set value. recently i started raising it regularly, just because it was another hand i might as well steal with from mp-lp. i actually agree with rilla's outline on this one.

studboyjoe

07-16-2005, 10:45 PM

#15 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 130

I think that you have a 43% chance of an overcard on the flop with JJ.

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07-24-2005, 07:06 PM

#16 (permalink)

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No, it's 57% of an overcard.

Miffed22001

07-24-2005, 08:43 PM

#17 (permalink)

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who is it that has a signature about pocket jacks?
something like cant win withem
cant drop em etc

anyways.
Ive changed how i play with JJ simply becasue i think you can buy enough pots with it.
Except ep when im only calling and looking for a ten high flop or a set, in any other position im raising 4xbb. Thats my standard raise. This is cash games not mtt as yet. I hit the flop hard. Callers are a bitch and you'll have to play the situation thereafter, but if you try to represnt the overcard/s you should be able to buy enough pots with JJ if you raised it.
Whatever you do dont bet more than you would with any other hand in similar position eg AK, AQ, QQ etc preflop. Thats just a give away, this MAY be different in sit n go's but its a dead giveaway at a cash table that you dont want mr nobody to call with Ax and catch an ace on the flop.
Im mtt play ive tried every possible way to play JJ and ive found only two. Either fold the damn thing and smile that you didnt LOSE

any chips with it or push with position in an unrasied pot. If you win the blinds then at least you won and didnt lose. If you get a caller your either a huge dog or a pretty good favourite. Ive been called with everything from pocket 3s to 45 off. Bare in mind though that in mtt play i'm prepared to gamble with a hand like JJ preflop rather than waste chips on a raise and proabably a suck out or overcard post flop. Make the choice preflop and pray.

07-25-2005, 02:37 AM

#18 (permalink)

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Pfft in tournament play JJ is not difficult at all. It's a great hand to raise, get called and then destroy your opponent after the flop when there are no overcards. Since I'm liable to play 64o the same way...

Of course in cash games people get tighter at the higher limits

straight167

07-25-2005, 04:34 AM

#19 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 62

I raise x10 the BB if no one raised.....

I call/re-raise if someone before me bets (it depends on how much they bet)

If the flop is all rags.....I go all in (if someone calls then they probably flopped a set or they have QQ,KK,AA. But chances are, they will probably drop their AJ, AQ, AK)

If the flop is full of K,Q,A...I bet a little to make a look like a "value bet" most likely they will just call and by doing so you will give yourself to hit your 10 for a straight. If the opponent comes over the top, after your "value bet" i would probably ditch em

make the RIGHT decision at the RIGHT time.

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Miffed22001

07-25-2005, 02:53 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Im interested in why people want to raise more than a standard raise (4bbs for me) with JJ.
I recognise it as a marginal hand like TT for example, but if you playit as you would play other strong hands surely you'll buy enough pots to make it profitable. If you go with the 'raise it massive' idea 1) it advertises your hand (im thinking how nice my KQ might look here) and 2) so many then want to push it post flop or do something equally stupid. If i see overcards on a flop after a 5+bb raise im betting at them putting them on a marginal hand.
I guess i just think you get stung less often if you play it as a hand you would raise with under normal circumstances. Aggression post flop and maybe at the turn is the key here surely not mad preflop raises and then suicide betting post flop.
But then i guess ive been working hard on dropping second best hands recently maybe thats what it is.
Also if your standard rasing the pot and then hitting flops hard, especially when overcards appear or if you have an overpair then where is the difference between hitting an Ace high board with AQ and an Ace high board with JJ? Only a policeman or calling station is going to figure it out.
Just my thoughts.

ChezJ

07-25-2005, 08:42 PM

#21 (permalink)

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ChezJ is an unknown quantity at this point

whether an overcard comes on the flop 47% or 53% of the time doesn't matter. if you are getting, say, 3 callers to your pre flop raise (3:1 on your money), you only need to flop undercards 25% of the time for it to be a profitable play. this is certainly the case.

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