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help fix leak... losing value on big hands...

  
 
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xX zorrito Xx
Old 02-12-2009, 01:02 AM     Post subject: help fix leak... losing value on big hands... #1 (permalink)  
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rather than playing poker tonight i decided to go over my tracker since i hit the 100K hand mark (i really hate that according to tracker i should be playing 0.10/0.25 but i withdrew 400 for an emergency so numbers are off)

i've found i lose a lot of value on my big hands... more so at 10NL... i get way too greedy and overbet the pot which is a huge leak and donk play on my part... in all honesty i don't exactly know how to play these situations where i have the absolute stone cold nuts or close to it since they're a bit of a rarity...

so my big question is how do i go about fixing this... generally what is the rule of thumb for value betting at this point... please be specific with your answers since i'm assuming everything depends on what is on the board, your opponent, and your stack size... the only thing is that i keep finding myself making these kind of donk bets on the river expecting to get paid off like in 2NL which isn't happening as much as in 10NL...

here are a few examples...

HAND 1
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP3) ($9.25)
CO ($1.60)
Button ($8.85)
SB ($3.75)
BB ($6)
UTG ($12.45)
UTG+1 ($16.60)
MP1 ($10)
MP2 ($11.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J, J
UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 raises to $0.40, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, Button calls $1, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.60

Flop: ($3.25) 8, J, 8 (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $1, Button calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1

Turn: ($6.25) 8 (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, Button checks

River: ($6.25) J (3 players)
UTG+1 bets $1.30, Hero raises to $7.25 (All-In), 2 folds

Total pot: $8.85 | Rake: $0.40



HAND 2
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (CO) ($13.45)
Button ($1.85)
SB ($4.65)
BB ($9.85)
UTG ($5.15)
UTG+1 ($12.05)
MP1 ($5.85)
MP2 ($12.75)
MP3 ($2.05)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 4, 4
UTG raises to $0.40, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.40, 2 folds, BB calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.25) 4, 6, 6 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $0.70, Hero calls $0.70, 1 fold

Turn: ($2.65) 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($2.65) Q (2 players)
UTG bets $2, Hero raises to $7.10, 1 fold

Total pot: $6.65 | Rake: $0.30



HAND 3
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($4.37)
Hero (Button) ($8.07)
SB ($4.84)
BB ($6.31)
UTG ($1.95)
UTG+1 ($12.79)
MP1 ($6.13)
MP2 ($10)
MP3 ($5.93)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, J
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.30, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.30, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.30, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.97) J, 3, Q (3 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.30, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.57) A (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.35, Hero raises to $0.70, UTG+1 calls $0.35

River: ($2.97) J (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $6.77 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $2.97 | Rake: $0.10



HAND 4
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($5.40)
Hero (MP1) ($13.59)
MP2 ($6.74)
MP3 ($3.18)
CO ($2.26)
Button ($2.53)
SB ($10.27)
BB ($8.02)
UTG ($6.12)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q, A
UTG raises to $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.25, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.25, 4 folds, UTG calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.82) 6, 9, K (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.40, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.62) J (2 players)
UTG bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75

River: ($3.12) 10 (2 players)
UTG bets $0.50, Hero raises to $12.19 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $4.12 | Rake: $0.15
 
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Parasurama
Old 02-12-2009, 01:13 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Stop checking/minraising/calling the turn when you have the relative nuts? Stop shoving the river like it looks like anything but the nuts?

Do you balance these river shoves with bluffs ever?
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Old 02-12-2009, 01:19 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parasurama
balance
Quote:
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB
It's important to think about balance, but you don't need to balance river shoves with nuts with river bluffs at NL5 because people will still pay you off if you don't balance as long as they have a hand.

The important thing here is to bet big on previous streets and keep betting. Just make sure at least 3/4 of a PSB goes in on every street and your pots will be big.
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Illfavor
Old 02-12-2009, 01:19 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 Consider actually betting when you get these hands.
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Old 02-12-2009, 01:20 AM #5 (permalink)  
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i have never pushed as a stone cold bluff at this level... nor have a ever showed down a bluff... the closest i'd come showing down a bluff would be like a shove with an open ended straight and flush draw on the flop and i'd miss...

i honestly don't think you can make that kind of sophisticated play until 0.25/0.50 to be profitable in the long run... again someone flame me if this is wrong... my reasoning is simply that there are more calling stations at this level...

please provide betting examples...
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-12-2009, 01:26 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Micro2Macro is a jewel in the roughMicro2Macro is a jewel in the roughMicro2Macro is a jewel in the rough
 If you build a bigger pot early rather than slowplaying, you'll get looser calls out of your opponents by the river when you have a monster because they will feel 'committed'. So basically what Iopq said.

Even to a pretty bad player when you slowish play the flop and turn and then jam the river it looks like you have a big hand - when you do.
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bjsaust
Old 02-12-2009, 02:03 AM #7 (permalink)  
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You know exactly why you're losing value, I'm not sure why you posted this.
Just playing to improve.
 
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Old 02-12-2009, 02:29 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
You know exactly why you're losing value, I'm not sure why you posted this.
i have no idea what to bet and looking for suggestions?..
 
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bjsaust
Old 02-12-2009, 02:34 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Hand 1 you have the board crushed so I dont mind the small bet, but you might as well bet turn small also. Theres not a lot you can do in this spot.

Hand 2 I'd raise flop. He can continue with all higher PPs and FDs and crap. You run the risk of the flush coming in and he wont continue anyway.

Hand 3 Raise properly on all streets. This isnt limit.

Hand 4 Raise turn to get called by his draws, as you see if the flush doesnt come in you dont get paid.



Bet properly basically. Bet/raise/bet/bet/raise/etc. Hand 1 is really the only spot to do anything otherwise.
Just playing to improve.
 
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Parasurama
Old 02-12-2009, 06:17 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Sorry I didn't mean that you should actually worry about balance in general. If you are going to try to overbet shove on the river often you should balance if you ever want to get value from any observant player. This is the type of play you see from fish only with the nuts. You should make proper bets throughout the hand, forcing players to make small mistakes rather than hoping they'll make a big mistake.
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texa8
Old 02-12-2009, 06:59 AM #11 (permalink)  
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you know you're overbetting... so just tone it back..
IMO i make it 3x the bet on the river, unless you've got a bet and a call or two in which case overbetting like u are is probably ok...
i think your betting on earlier streets needs as much attention.
Whenever i see a player at these stakes show some initiative before the flop, seem to play pasively then shove the river, i often feel the shove is to make up for lost value on earlier streets.

try 3x the villians bet. with no minraise crap on the turn lol
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bjsaust
Old 02-12-2009, 10:13 AM #12 (permalink)  
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I like an overbet on the river when I have the nuts and villain likely has a 2nd nut hand. Boat when villain obviously has a flush, nut flush v's a lower flush, stuff like that. Only when I'm really sure thats the case though, otherwise we lose way too much value.
Just playing to improve.
 
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HeAVyB101
Old 02-12-2009, 02:26 PM #13 (permalink)  
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I didn't read all the replies yet but my input on this is....

The point of playing small pairs, flush draws etc. is that your hand is disguised. You want to get as much money in every street as possible when you hit these hands. You are playing too weak, especially on the turn. You can't be looking to slow play everytime or you will be losing a lot of value on your hands. You will get paid off more in the long run if you play your made hands stronger for the main reason that when your opponent believes he has the best hand you will get his entire stack. If your opponent folds to a 3x raise on the turn then you obviously weren't going to get much of his money anyways. But when he does call the turn, the large pot will entice him to call a larger % of times on the river.
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LawDude
Old 02-12-2009, 06:15 PM #14 (permalink)  
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I concur with Heavy. Slowplaying has its place in poker, but it's a second level strategy, a response to something that opponents do when you bet your hand, and it should be understood as such.

In other words, you slowplay because, based on a read of the players you are up against, you believe they are likely to fold if you simply represent a big hand. But before you slowplay, you need to make that read. (You also need to have a hand that slowplays well-- if someone can suck out on your hand, you need to price the draws correctly even if that means that everyone ends up folding.)

The truth is that there are lots of poker players who don't process information that you provide them about your hand or who have what they consider to be a "very good" hand that they don't want to lay down. In either case, you make more money by just getting your chips in and letting them call you down. So before slowplaying, you need to read your opponent and make a determination about whether he is likely to fold to a bet (and what bets he is likely to fold to or call). I suspect that not enough players are bothering to make this read.
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