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bspahn
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01-27-2005, 11:27 PM
Post subject: Help dealing with premium hand limpers
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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It seems there's quite an abundance of players at both the 5c/10c as well as 10c/25c tables and even SNG's where players will limp AA-JJ, AK, AQ etc and I'm trying to figure out how to effectively deal with this.
I'm taking notes now using the 'tick and a system' (i write down a tick when they see the flop to see how loose they are, and the 'a' for when they show any sign of aggression)
I will have notes on people such as:
limp KK
limp AQs
chase 4flush on pot bet
etc etc
So this helps me a little but it's still very difficult to really judge what someone could have if they're being deceptive like this. Often case they will also not come out betting on the flop no matter what. I don't really know why they're trying to be so deceptive as most have suggested this really isnt profitable at all at micro stakes.
Any thoughts ?
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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any thoughts on this topic ? i'm sure many of you are up against this frequently as well ? How often does it happen at higher limits ?
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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If you find multiple people acting like that, you can loosen your hand requirements because they're not "charging you" for draws.
If it's really prevalent, that's good. You can play offsuit connectors more, even the ones with gaps in 'em (86o, that sort of thing). Add Kxs, even Qxs from late.
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it's still very difficult to really judge what someone could have if they're being deceptive like this
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Yes, that's the advantage to passive play. The DISadvantage (it's a biggie) is that it doesn't matter all that much what they've got, since they're constantly giving you free chances to make the nuts at 'em.
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Superstar
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 22
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Thats a much bigger problem at micro-limits. If you are aware enough as a player to be annoyed by these habits, you are probably good enough to get comfortable at higher limits.
I found the higher the limits I played at the better I played. I used to break even and lose money alot at the 25 and 50 tables. When I moved to 100 I I started taking alot less bad beats and making alot more money. I am not suggesting you go from 10 cent to 100 dollar limit, I am just saying that it sounds like you are playing below your level.
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md_yoda
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 4
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Quote:
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It seems there's quite an abundance of players at both the 5c/10c as well as 10c/25c tables and even SNG's where players will limp AA-JJ, AK, AQ etc and I'm trying to figure out how to effectively deal with this.
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Hello - I'm new here, but here are my thoughts.
Change your preflop play - limp in along with them on good drawing hands -- connectors (suited & non) 5-6+, small pairs, even single-gap suited cards (8-T suited, 9-J suited) - when you make a hand, BUST THEM HARD. This allows you to take the most advantage of them - see the flop cheaply, and if you don't hit, it's an EASY fold.
That is hard to play against, but someone limping in with JJ is risky. IMO, the only way to win with JJ is before the flop or hitting a set -- too many overs. Also, if you have a medium Ace or a A-x suited, you should limp in with these hands. Then you can bust his KK when your Ace hits or when you hit the flush.
Good luck,
MD
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Joke
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 131
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Quote:
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the only way to win with JJ is before the flop or hitting a set -- too many overs
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thats really wrong, JJ rocks!
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FlyingSaucy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Watching the kids
Posts: 1,603
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I also play micros at UB and run into this often enough...
I think you are right about taking the notes when it happens. That's step 1. But if you are against someone who you have no notes on, how do you know? Typically what you'll see is that they will slow play it from start to finish. There's no good way to read them. I guess, say, you are in a pot with 4 other preflop limpers. You've got QJs in LP. Flop comes up Q rag rag rainbow. Checks around to you, you bet it strong, get everyone to fold except 1 other guy, who just calls. Flop is another rag, same thing. River is another rag, and you still lead out, then they raise you. This sucks. Pot sized bets can get big when 5 people limp.
Counter strategy is to not get as aggressive with betting out your top pair, but something tells me that isn't best in the long run.
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ectomorph
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 21
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I agree with yoda, time to start limping w/suited connectors and they'll pay you off when you flop 2 pair or a made straight. Always try and do whatever makes their play "incorrect".
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by FlyingSaucerAttack
I guess, say, you are in a pot with 4 other preflop limpers. You've got QJs in LP. Flop comes up Q rag rag rainbow. Checks around to you, you bet it strong, get everyone to fold except 1 other guy, who just calls. Flop is another rag, same thing. River is another rag, and you still lead out, then they raise you. This sucks.
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If I question what someone has due to play like this, I'll sometimes let it check through on the river. It's safer (note: I'm assuming you're in positition as the above example mentioned it checking around to you on the flop/turn), though in many cases it won't get you as much money as you could have made. At these limits there are also a lot of people who will call to the river and fold there if they don't have a hand (can be very nice in the case where you also don't have a hand...gotta love these people), so it's really tough here without a read.
- Jeffrey
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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Every once in a while, i'll get socked by an unexpected one of these, happened to me twice tonight to aa and to ak w/ k flop. they're not a big problem for me though, they become exactly like a set. most of the time i'm playing, i'm either playing premium hands, drawing hands, or i'm a blind and am playing whatever. When i have a premium hand i will have raised preflop, and on the flop, and will know a caller/reraiser probably has something so i'm tipped off. drawing hands, someone limping AA is probably the best case scenario. really only a big problem when i'm bb (or sb sometimes) and am playing moderate hands, where i might hit a little, bluff and get smacked down like happened tonight.
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{This post has been removed}
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Sed
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wastin' away again in margaritaville....
Posts: 1,102
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Rippy,
Is there a middle ground when you are less aggressive hiting a card on the flop? I can see you winning a lot when you hit with some waffles like 35, 46, 57 etc.. but it would seem post flop play would be much harder when you raise a hand like 9T or 8T, if you do? I would think that hitting a T could be disaster at times.
- sed
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FlyingSaucy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Watching the kids
Posts: 1,603
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I agree with sed, theres got to be some middle ground here. Raising the hell out of people preflop will make them immune. Especially on micro's where you can put in a 5xbb raise preflop and get literally 4 or 5 callers no matter what. So raising this big will not narrow down the field. Going all in will only get the good hands to call. You aren't left with many options if you do a lot of big preflop raises.
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{This post has been removed}
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Sed
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wastin' away again in margaritaville....
Posts: 1,102
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I can see this working great at the higher limits rippy plays or later in tourneys but against true fish or in the micros it is harder to judge where you are. You have to have a good read on your opponent. A guy who calls with any A can end up hurting you badly.... I'm not trying to bash your play or anything just working through what is required to make this profitable. Playing like this without working though the drawbacks can kill your BR.
- sed
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whileone
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 306
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sed
I can see this working great at the higher limits rippy plays or later in tourneys but against true fish or in the micros it is harder to judge where you are. You have to have a good read on your opponent. A guy who calls with any A can end up hurting you badly.... I'm not trying to bash your play or anything just working through what is required to make this profitable. Playing like this without working though the drawbacks can kill your BR.
- sed
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you *have* to read them. micro's are easier to read that the major leagues. It's true, a guy who calls any A can win a pot, but i don't see how he can really hurt you. unless you're playing out of bankroll? the thing to realize about micros is, if a guy will call a pot sized bet, he'll call your whole stack. don't put your whole stack on the line without *knowing* you are ahead.
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Sed
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wastin' away again in margaritaville....
Posts: 1,102
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I was referring to hurting you on a hand to hand basis... not overall. The BR comment was there as a warning that you can piss away a lot of money even within your BR if you play this way incorrectly. I was just making the point that you have to know your opponent well enough that you are not at risk of him making TPTK with and Ax on a raggy board or catching a low set.
- sed
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