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Having to check/fold here just blows

  
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-23-2009, 03:35 AM     Post subject: Having to check/fold here just blows #1 (permalink)  
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 Ahh..this has been happening for the past 3K hands so far at $10NL. I don't really know what range to put him on other than maybe a standard TT+, AK here. I just arrived at the table a few hands ago. I'm pretty sure I can't continue after the turn here. Is my bet sizing okay preflop? I felt I shoud have raised more pre so I could get more money in on the flop. What do you guys think?
Only 15 hands or so on villian who has been pretty active so far. Is shutting down on this turn okay? It looks really weak but I figured Ace's will make up a significant portion of his range.

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Button ($10.20)
SB ($18.30)
Hero (BB) ($10.50)
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Preflop: Hero is BB with K, K
UTG bets $0.50, 6 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, UTG calls $1

Flop: ($3.15) J, 8, 10 (2 players)
Hero bets $2, UTG calls $2

Turn: ($7.15) A (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $3.20, Hero folds

Total pot: $7.15 | Rake: $0.35
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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CBAT
Old 02-23-2009, 03:49 AM #2 (permalink)  
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You show so much weakness on the turn. He either thinks you are some rook tryin to trap him? Or he knows you are FRIGHTENED by this A. And you are frightened by this A.

Throw a 1/2 pot bet out there? Think he's got AJ, AT?
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-23-2009, 03:59 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 Yeah my turn play tilts me.
Should I be bet/folding turn and if called check/fold river?
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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settecba
Old 02-23-2009, 04:00 AM #4 (permalink)  
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I think the fold is OK. If you dont have any reads on villain, a "reasonal" range for him would put him way ahead. Something like {88+,AQs+,AQo+} gives him 68% equity. And what is worse, you are OOP and gonna have no clue on the river about where you will be standing.
Of course with only 15 hands on villain, he could have a wider range but you dont know that, and you dont have any read indicating that.
One other thing, have you seen him raise before? is 5BB standard for him? Id say the PFR puts him on a very tight range, even more after calling your 3bet.

I think you should fold in this spot, and take notes if villain is raising/calling 3bets light, you should be able to exploit this in hands to come.
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-23-2009, 04:04 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 I elected for c/f'ing because there's no way I have any fold equity in this spot.

I'm pretty sure his raise is standard because there's a poster so he's making it 4bb+1 for the dead blind.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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Carroters
Old 02-23-2009, 04:05 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 This guy's opened utg, called a 3 bet then called our bet on a flop which hits his range pretty hard. Then, the worst card ever falls off on the turn so that much of his range that wasn't already beating us, is now beating us.

Quote:
Throw a 1/2 pot bet out there? Think he's got AJ, AT?
The pot's big - why would we ever want to fire out a half bet pot which virtually commits us to stacking off when we're now clearly behind his range with no scope to improve on the river? We can't just make a retarded bet because we want to show him we aren't scared of the ace falling! This is a terrible reason to bet.

I'm really tired and about to go to bed, but this is surely the easiest c/f ever on the turn, nh.

 
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-23-2009, 04:08 AM #7 (permalink)  
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 Yeah I'm pretty sure c/f'ing is standard here. But how's my bet sizing preflop and on flop?
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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settecba
Old 02-23-2009, 04:13 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
This guy's opened utg, called a 3 bet then called our bet on a flop which hits his range pretty hard. Then, the worst card ever falls off on the turn so that much of his range that wasn't already beating us, is now beating us.

Quote:
Throw a 1/2 pot bet out there? Think he's got AJ, AT?
The pot's big - why would we ever want to fire out a half bet pot which virtually commits us to stacking off when we're now clearly behind his range with no scope to improve on the river? We can't just make a retarded bet because we want to show him we aren't scared of the ace falling! This is a terrible reason to bet.

I'm really tired and about to go to bed, but this is surely the easiest c/f ever on the turn, nh.
^^^^^This.

b/f turn is awful IMO. Also, what is your river plan OOP if villain calls your turn bet(which willl happen most of the time)????

NH micro.
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settecba
Old 02-23-2009, 04:14 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Yeah I'm pretty sure c/f'ing is standard here. But how's my bet sizing preflop and on flop?
also standard?
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CBAT
Old 02-23-2009, 04:30 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Sounds good, I actually like finding out I'm wrong - I can implement it into the next time I play.
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-23-2009, 04:40 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBAT
Sounds good, I actually like finding out I'm wrong - I can implement it into the next time I play.
that's what makes FTR so great. These guys help save us money in the future.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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dranger7070
Old 02-23-2009, 05:08 AM #12 (permalink)  
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c/f is fine. It won't be the last time you have KK.

PF: I don't mind 3x but I typically go for a 3.5-4x 3-bet size, especially with a hand as strong as KK. You want to get as much in the pot as possible while its likely you are still ahead.

Flop: Obviously no problem betting 2/3 pot here, but why not make it $2.50? or $3?. There's no rule that says you can't bet pot just because you 3-bet. Obviously the flop is mildly dangerous with a straight possible, but I'm not too worried about it yet with his raise PF. Obviously TT and JJ just got there, but you have to make his range wider than TT+.

He's gonna want to call with KJ, AJ, TT, JJ, QQ, AA, etc. You are obviously wanting to get it in on the flop, so bet as much as possible to do that. You would be amazed how often you get called even if you overbet the pot to 3.50. I'm not advocating this though lol.
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sil693
Old 02-23-2009, 07:36 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dranger7070
PF: I don't mind 3x but I typically go for a 3.5-4x 3-bet size, especially with a hand as strong as KK. You want to get as much in the pot as possible while its likely you are still ahead.
especially as your OOP for the rest of the hand.
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-23-2009, 07:47 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 Yeah..since I'm going to be out of position should I be trying to set up the pot so that villain will pretty much have to go all in over top of my flop bet if he chooses to call?

For example he has $9, if I can get him to put in $2 preflop the pot will be $4. He'll have $7 left and If I pot the flop (Maybe even make it $4.50) I will completely shut out any draws and maybe have him stacking with a weaker pair. Of course it would just be a cooler if he did happen to flop a set or be holding AA, but we'll take down the pot often enough I think to make up for that.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

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http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Fnord
Old 02-23-2009, 08:37 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Uhhh yeah, Ni Han.

I started tp say peel cuz I'm a station but it's an annyoing lay down the best hand sometimes fold.
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Parasurama
Old 02-23-2009, 05:17 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Is c/c really that bad?
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dranger7070
Old 02-23-2009, 06:11 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Yea because if you c/c what are you hoping to accomplish on the river? He will never fold an Ace, and with the range the OP assigned him, TT+ AK, AQ, etc we are only really beating QQ right now. Easy fold.
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Sir Pawnalot
Old 02-23-2009, 06:28 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Completely agree with Dranger and Micro- only sensible hand you beat on turn is QQ. I do not think QQ is likely, because he would probably want to raise that hand on flop.

Villain opens UTG with 5 BB bet. This implies a lot of strength if villain is sensible. You could easily have made your preflop raise a bit bigger as you suggested and raised a bit more on flop.

Playing the hand as you did I think the turn C/F was brilliant. Those dollars we not lose adds to our profits.
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Parasurama
Old 02-23-2009, 06:37 PM #19 (permalink)  
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If we had his range beat on the flop, because the turn is such a good card for him to bet, his turn bet doesn't narrow his range much. If we c/c we can safely c/f the river and hopefully get a showdown. Idk maybe I'm just a station.
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Sir Pawnalot
Old 02-23-2009, 07:05 PM #20 (permalink)  
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I do not think you are a station for wanting to check-call here.

But you are probably playing at higher stakes and forgetting that many players play very straightforward at 10NL. Hand ranges is much more defined in micro and we are way behind his range on turn. These guys do not think that deep that they represent the A...
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dranger7070
Old 02-23-2009, 07:06 PM #21 (permalink)  
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That just seems really weak parasuma. Why would we c/c on turn then c/f on river? What is going to stop him from betting again? Its just not a line thats gonna make very much in the long run. And we're playing a long run game.

Why not just c/f and move on, instead of losing more money? We can save the $ now, and make more off the guy in a more favorable situation.
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bjsaust
Old 02-23-2009, 08:58 PM #22 (permalink)  
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I would c/f almost never here.
Just playing to improve.
 
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dranger7070
Old 02-23-2009, 09:01 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
I would c/f almost never here.
Care to elaborate?
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bjsaust
Old 02-23-2009, 09:22 PM #24 (permalink)  
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What are you putting him on? UTG raise with AJ that called the c-bet? A set? He hasnt floated us with AK or AQ. KQ maybe. Theres just not a heap of hands we're behind now. I'd call turn and evaluate river. Folding isnt terrible, but the A didnt help him much.
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sil693
Old 02-23-2009, 09:28 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
He hasnt floated us with AK or AQ. KQ
when was the last time you played 10NL??
 
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bjsaust
Old 02-23-2009, 09:35 PM #26 (permalink)  
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Hmmm, yeah I guess. In my games I wouldnt c/f this but its probably fine here. Sucks though.
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St8ofN8
Old 02-23-2009, 09:35 PM #27 (permalink)  
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I'd raise more pre and post flop. As played I think the c/f was the right move here. I don't see any advantage to calling the turn bet.
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settecba
Old 02-23-2009, 09:40 PM #28 (permalink)  
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AK and AQ are floating this flop +90% of the time
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Parasurama
Old 02-24-2009, 02:33 AM #29 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dranger7070
That just seems really weak parasuma. Why would we c/c on turn then c/f on river? What is going to stop him from betting again? Its just not a line thats gonna make very much in the long run. And we're playing a long run game.

Why not just c/f and move on, instead of losing more money? We can save the $ now, and make more off the guy in a more favorable situation.
Ok, it's fine to c/f at 10NL. But never dismiss a line just because you think it seems weak.
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dranger7070
Old 02-24-2009, 02:44 AM #30 (permalink)  
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i hear you. I wasn't COMPLETELY dismissing the line, I was just speaking in terms of 10nl. I'm sure that c/c, c/f river would be fine at some of the higher stakes, but for this level it's not the best line imo.
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