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02-18-2007, 01:04 PM
Post subject: Hands that I have absolutely NEVER layed down preflop
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 37
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AA
KK
AK suited
QQ
AK offsuit
I have never layed these hands down preflop under any circumstances and I don't think I ever will, even if I was being pushed all in. If they are pushing and it comes to a coin flip and I lose, then so be it. I have my doubts sometimes with AK and QQ but still, I was never able to lay these down.
However, something tells me that this is a bad idea in some circumstances - I dunno. What do you guys think?
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sandstorm
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 573
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AA is my only hand on that list, really. I have laid down KK a few times and my opinions is that you should in rare cases. However, this does not apply to low stakes. You can be comfortable going all in with KK 100% of the times, especially under 100NL. AK and QQ is a little harder I guess, but there are certainly times to gamble with them too. I'd be more hesitant to call an all-in with AK or QQ unless I know my opponent kinda well. But it really really depends on the stakes too. What are you playing?
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>3
this is my favourite part of the post
it looks like angry boobs
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Fade
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 37
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well, the highest I've gone is $1/$2 blinds for NL which I guess is kinda low by some people on this site's standards.
I havn't played higher games but I still think I wont be able to throw down KK preflop.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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I lay down AK preflop. It's not often, but over the course of my online career it's gotta be at least 50 times.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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i have no problem laying down AK. QQ is a bit harder, but ive layed it down several times.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Fade
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 37
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I'm sure you guys have layed down those hands but I'm just wondering if those were the right plays.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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ive put kk down, both live and online.
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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i layed down QQ several times, AK as well. if a 5/1 nit 4 bets they´re no good at all. doenst happen very often, but there are situations, when its +ev.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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Benoso
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Wales, UK
Posts: 157
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I think never laying down AKo 'under any circumstances' is a huge leak.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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Too right.
OP, can you give us your stats for AK and QQ? What's your bb/hand? It'd be amazing if you were actually right not to fold them ever.
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MrSunTzu
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 15
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I wish I could lay down Kings, ran into pocket Aces three times last night...No fun
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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I have layed down AA facing a push on the bubble in a satellite. It all depends.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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So when a 30/1 4bets you allin, you're felting QQ/AK?
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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I have never laid down AA or KK. AK I have laid down a lot pf. How do you guys react to being 3-bet oop by a solid TAG opponenet (assuming the raise is standard 3x my pf raise)?
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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Reidak
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 566
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Ive laid down AK/QQ many times, as well as KK but far less. Only time I toss KK is after a large 4 bet from a tight opponent. I never feel bad since for all the times im folding im building savings that I otherwise would have blown if i ran into aces. Example at 25nl ive got $5 in the pot PF, get 4 bet for another $10. So say i fold, i lose 5 dollars. Assume i play this hand 5 times, and each 5 times i fold. I lose $25, or 1 buy in. Now lets say that 3/5 times my opponent had aces, I would have probably gotten stacked each time. So i have saved alot of money. Now im not assuming the other 2 hands in which case i might have won, because im lazy and im heading out right now. but you get the gist of it.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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How do you guys manage to get 4-bet so much without being totally pot committed??
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calibrated
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4
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I've definitely gotten rid of AK o and s. Too many times I have seen and been busted by AA or KK, or any other pair for that matter. But only if it's a big raise, maybe 10xBB or more. A lot of it depends on who's doing the betting/raising, is he tight, maniac, tilted?
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Xioustic
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 322
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AKs and AKo are drawing hands preflop. They should be folded preflop accordingly generally because you can't tell the difference between an AA (almost drawing dead), KK (basically drawing dead), or QQ (still a little less than a coinflip) all-in. I cannot imagine a call with AKs/AKo against any reasonable opp's preflop all-in over a large sample of hands would be +EV for this reason.
AA is not a drawing hand preflop (never folded).
KK is not a drawing hand unless it's against AA preflop (1 out of 23 times or better, I think, so folding it is kind of absurd most of the time, i never fold it anyway).
QQ is not a drawing hand unless it's against KK or AA and hardly better than a coinflip against AKs/AKo (1 out of 11 times or so or better, i fold this against two all-ins or a tight player's all-in).
This applies to any no-limit game (SnG or ring). A 4bet preflop in a limit game I'll play AKs for flush draws or aces/kings paired or both given community cards.
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^ Worst advice possible, don't listen ^
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donkbee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: so close but so far
Posts: 3,604
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FWIW, I was talking to a 5/10 NL 6 max player today and he said he rarely folds AK preflop.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Poker is all situational, never say never.
AA - Situations are so rare you will fold AA preflop, and they all relate to tournament play on the bubble/ITM, its not relevant. Never laying AA down is a good policy
KK - I think you need definite solid reads to lay KK down, generally you can play your entire life without laying KK and not consider it a leak.
QQ - It is read dependant and sitation dependant, take into account that especially early in Sngs when you face two AI's calling with QQ is marginal.
AK - There are tons of situations in which folding AK is correct.
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xioustic
AKs and AKo are drawing hands preflop. They should be folded preflop accordingly generally because you can't tell the difference between an AA (almost drawing dead), KK (basically drawing dead), or QQ (still a little less than a coinflip) all-in. I cannot imagine a call with AKs/AKo against any reasonable opp's preflop all-in over a large sample of hands would be +EV for this reason.
AA is not a drawing hand preflop (never folded).
KK is not a drawing hand unless it's against AA preflop (1 out of 23 times or better, I think, so folding it is kind of absurd most of the time, i never fold it anyway).
QQ is not a drawing hand unless it's against KK or AA and hardly better than a coinflip against AKs/AKo (1 out of 11 times or so or better, i fold this against two all-ins or a tight player's all-in).
This applies to any no-limit game (SnG or ring). A 4bet preflop in a limit game I'll play AKs for flush draws or aces/kings paired or both given community cards.
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Gah, is poker that simple for you? I wouldn't have much fun playing if I followed this formula. I also don't think this formula is necessarily sound.
Re OP : Mix it up, go with your read and sometimes calling AI with AK - QQ is +EV and sometimes it isn't. In higher stakes game, the play is generally more agressive which is why AK and QQ become such stronger preflop hands.
A common spot where I do fold AK and QQ (nl 400 and below 6 max) is when I'm 4-bet from someone who has position on me if I think his 4-betting range is QQ+ .
I think folding kk for 150 BBs or less shouldn't be done, more than that it's very doable at lower stakes.
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Family Cruise IMO
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Xioustic
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 322
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ravageur
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xioustic
AKs and AKo are drawing hands preflop. They should be folded preflop accordingly generally because you can't tell the difference between an AA (almost drawing dead), KK (basically drawing dead), or QQ (still a little less than a coinflip) all-in. I cannot imagine a call with AKs/AKo against any reasonable opp's preflop all-in over a large sample of hands would be +EV for this reason.
AA is not a drawing hand preflop (never folded).
KK is not a drawing hand unless it's against AA preflop (1 out of 23 times or better, I think, so folding it is kind of absurd most of the time, i never fold it anyway).
QQ is not a drawing hand unless it's against KK or AA and hardly better than a coinflip against AKs/AKo (1 out of 11 times or so or better, i fold this against two all-ins or a tight player's all-in).
This applies to any no-limit game (SnG or ring). A 4bet preflop in a limit game I'll play AKs for flush draws or aces/kings paired or both given community cards.
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Gah, is poker that simple for you? I wouldn't have much fun playing if I followed this formula. I also don't think this formula is necessarily sound. |
It may sound like a formula, but the way I see it... As hands get extraordinarily strong (QQ+ and AKo) preflop and postflop decisions become incredibly easy (thus a basic formula preflop). It just becomes a matter of getting your cash in while you're ahead. The "formula" isn't set in stone or anything, reads can become a factor for QQ and AKs/o.
You can't really screw these up too bad. The strength of the cards makes just about any play but folding +EV.
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^ Worst advice possible, don't listen ^
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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AK I lay down quite alot preflop if theres been alot of aggression (from players who arent aggressive). Thats because Ill miss most flops and Itll be obvious when Ive hit so calling oop sucks. Also pushing is disgusting against a raise and a reraise from two tight players.
QQ is a little harder to fold since I can often play it for a set even when I think I might be behind. I still lay it down plenty though.
KK is tough. I think ive laid it down twice.
AA is even harder. Ive only ever laid down AA once preflop... stupid phone.
It all depends though. Ive got allin for over 120BBs with ATs before and I was miles ahead. One of the times I folded KK it was the easiest fold of my life (he had 1%PFR after alot of hands and kept on raising). There is no formula and trying to play by one (unless you are a beginner and trying to stay out of trouble) will cost you money.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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pokerroomace
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 783
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QQ should be folded to a 4 bet to a lot of players when playing 100bb FR. AK is definitely not worth going allin with pf deep stacked. There's no value in it at all. If a decent player is willing to go allin pf he has a high pair or AK. He won't have AQ. The only way you can go allin is if for some reason you're getting a lot of value or you can be very certain you're opponent has a lower pair or an unpaired hand and you're getting sufficient odds.
I've never folded KK pf - but I've never had the opportunity. The stakes I play are too low and usually I don't have stats on my opponents. Offline I don't think I've ever run into aces when i've had kings - and even if they did 99% of the time i'm playing with fish so i'm never folding.
This advice doesn't apply when playing against fish/loose weak players.
You should fold bigger hands a lot less in tournaments (but only because of the smaller stack sizes).
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