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Knytestorme
Old 10-01-2007, 02:14 AM     Post subject: Handling Short stacks #1 (permalink)  
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I have noticed lately that one of my main weaknesses (and there are many so that should say something ) is that I don't know how to handle the short-stackers that are making obvious squeezes in multi-way pots but are taking away my implied odds.

If it's headsup I know how to play it pretty much (3-bet or fold essentially) and if I'm last to act I can also deal with it (call if the others in the pot give me implied odds for sets, etc) but when I limp with a small pp and others behind do as well I'm never sure.

Take the following hand as an example:
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 ($52.50)
Hero ($75.45)
MP2 ($39.20)
MP3 ($56.90)
CO ($44)
Button ($110.20)
SB ($19.50)
BB ($51.20)
UTG ($26.70)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8, 8.
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.50, 3 folds, Button calls $0.50, SB raises to $3.25, 1 fold, UTG folds, Hero folds, Button folds.

Final Pot: $2.50

Here we have the shortstacker raising it up and leaving implied odds of only 5:1 so I can't call for set value, and with the button still to act and covering me I can't 3-bet shorty all-in so what's the play...am I resigned to folding on these plays all the time?
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martindcx1e
Old 10-01-2007, 04:15 AM #2 (permalink)  
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yes fold
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BankItDrew
Old 10-01-2007, 04:42 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 good fold. There's nothing you can do here to avoid the squeeze play, you just gots to let it happen man.


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Cocco_Bill
Old 10-01-2007, 04:55 AM #4 (permalink)  
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why dont you raise it?
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Knytestorme
Old 10-01-2007, 05:53 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
why dont you raise it?
Full ring, MP1 and still 6 players to act after me. I'm always wary about raising mid pairs that early...if there were say only 3 left to act then yeah raise is cool but I wouldn't raise 88 from UTG or UTG+1 so around 90% of the time I'm only limping it for set value from MP1

That's my reasoning anyway but am more than willing to listen to any reasons for raising in this spot as a standard play, not just for some balance.
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pgil
Old 10-04-2007, 02:53 PM #6 (permalink)  
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depends on the UTG limper for whether to be the initial raiser.

Is he limping a lot UTG, does he hang on for too long post flop, is he easy to play against? If he has been limping a lot and playing fit or fold then it is an easy raise. Unless he is only limping med+ PPs from UTG (and that almost never happens) then I would default raise this.

This way if the 20BB SB wants to reraise, you can call and take the (hopefully) flip as long as you have succeeded in folding all of the players between you without any worries.
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Chopper
Old 10-06-2007, 08:27 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Cocco Bill = EF Hutton.

...when EF Hutton talks, people SHOULD listen.

dont give your reasons that you shouldnt raise.....ask Bill why he WOULD? seen the results he gets? debating him is just being arrogant, imo.

Bill, why would you raise there? any specific reason?
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sejje
Old 10-07-2007, 05:07 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
dont give your reasons that you shouldnt raise.....ask Bill why he WOULD? seen the results he gets? debating him is just being arrogant, imo.
I'm sorry, is this serious?

The guy asked him why he didn't raise. Kny told him why he doesn't. Where are you seeing debate?

I didn't detect even the slightest little bit of arrogance.
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salsa4ever
Old 10-07-2007, 05:09 AM #9 (permalink)  
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wrong.

the correct response to "why don't you raise" is "why do you raise"

(wasn't going to include this originally, but 'cos I can't read the thoughts of micro stakes players any more - in case chopper was actually being serious I am lampooning his ridiculous post. I will of course give him an out [just 'cos I'm nice] if he decides to say it was a subtle bit of deadpan...)
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well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
 
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Chopper
Old 10-07-2007, 02:26 PM #10 (permalink)  
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i understand kny was saying he was "open" to opinions. the comment about "arrogance" was not directed at anyone in specific.

all i meant by it was, lets not get so busy defending OUR logic that we dont ask for more insight into the opposite line of thinking. thereby, enabling our egos to hinder our learning/growth processes.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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BankItDrew
Old 10-07-2007, 08:01 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knytestorme
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
why dont you raise it?
Full ring, MP1 and still 6 players to act after me. I'm always wary about raising mid pairs that early...if there were say only 3 left to act then yeah raise is cool but I wouldn't raise 88 from UTG or UTG+1 so around 90% of the time I'm only limping it for set value from MP1

That's my reasoning anyway but am more than willing to listen to any reasons for raising in this spot as a standard play, not just for some balance.

Why do you raise it?
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benny999
Old 10-07-2007, 09:44 PM #12 (permalink)  
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i guess limping makes sense but now how about reraising? i doubt button is limping behind AA here...so is shorty doing this with like A5o/22 and stuff?
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NLHE lahooozaher
Old 10-07-2007, 11:17 PM #13 (permalink)  
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If I decide to limp this I would fold to the sbs raise and none of my decision has anything to do with the button being in the hand. I raise preflop though. Build pot, c-bet, fold equity, make pot HU, image, and that's just thinking off hand.
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Miffed22001
Old 10-07-2007, 11:24 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 isolate UTG youre ahead, you know what your opponents are calling with if they cold call behind
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Cocco_Bill
Old 10-08-2007, 12:32 AM #15 (permalink)  
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lol

I don't play much fullring, but the standard play against a limper with 88 would be to raise in a short handed game. If a full ring game is playing in such a way that reraises are frequent I understand limping, but in my experience the low stakes full ring games don't play that way so I would raise to take control of the pot.
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Lithium
Old 10-10-2007, 06:36 PM #16 (permalink)  

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I don't understand the fold, and I don't understand not raising on your initial action.

Sure, you are in MP with people behind, but you can't play scared. 88 is a good starting hand, ahead of everything but a higher pocket pair. I don't want to let A 10 or K J limp here. I would bump it up substantially (say 6xbb with the caller in front). If someone comes over the top, get lost. Otherwise, you should be comfortable going into the flop against 1 or 2 players.

As played, there is one to act after you with no callers to the raise. My strong hunch is that you are ahead of everyone, including shorty. I either flat call and play after the flop, or reraise to at least $10. Again, you are going into the flop with at most 2 other players, where 88 is a strong hand. A lowball flop and you are most likely good. A flop with broadway cards and you can still play after the flop.

Just my anecdotal experience, but I more often than not regret calling a short stack raiser with a decent hand. I wouldn't be surprised if here shorty has A-rags suited.
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