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Hand VS Complete Random Unknown Probable Donk

  
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-07-2009, 08:44 AM     Post subject: Hand VS Complete Random Unknown Probable Donk #1 (permalink)  
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 Guy just arrived.

Does anyone just pitch AT here preflop to a min re-raise? I mean come on..it looks sooo bad folding and I really don't wanna get min 3-bet everytime I open.
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UTG ($12.50)
UTG+1 ($2.30)
MP1 ($12.20)
MP2 ($4.05)
Hero (MP3) ($10.90)
CO ($10.20)
Button ($17.70)
SB ($10.10)
BB ($10)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 10, A
4 folds, Hero bets $0.40, CO raises to $0.70, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.55) A, 2, 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($1.55) K (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($1.55) 10 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, CO raises to $1.40, Hero ?

WTF is his range like AK at worst? I don't see how QJ could take this line preflop though I suppose it could maybe if its soooooted.
Once again villain just arrived.
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Pig_Vomit
Old 04-07-2009, 09:10 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Fold pre flop to unknown imo. I think AT plays really bad oop against villains range but if you were going to play like if you had a read he 3 bets light or something y not 4 bet?

C-bet?

As played i think your odds warrant a call.
I see him taking this line with 88-KK a badly slowplayed AA or AK is possible but not likely. Its hard to say without any info. He probably doesn’t put you on an ace and bluffs really wide. If you had him pegged as a donk maybe KQ KJ. I really hate playing without any stats on somebody which is more of a reason to fold pre imo.
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-07-2009, 09:25 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 yeah i suppose no ones paying attention to whether I fold to this horrid raise anyway. It just feels sickening to do it, though I suppose it just brings akward situations come postlfop.

The river is just tough because I dunno if his 3-bet range is like the nuts pre or if its really wide. Usually river min-raises are strong.
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Pig_Vomit
Old 04-07-2009, 09:27 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Just had a thought that 4 betting is really bad. Your building a large pot where your either way ahead or behind. I'd prefer a hand like 78s to 4 bet. If you had reads of course.
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Airles™
Old 04-07-2009, 01:09 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Fuck that. I'm never folding to a preflop min-raise in NL with full stacks. I don't care if I have 72o and he's got Aces. If you take that line then you deserve to get stacked, period. And FWIW, I look him up on the river.
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Illfavor
Old 04-07-2009, 01:10 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 What were your postflop intentions when you called the minraise preflop?
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wonderland
Old 04-07-2009, 01:12 PM #7 (permalink)  
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wanting a delayed cbet here of a decent size.

for me it's getting to the stage where i don't trust anyone, but if it's an unknown, man do i proceed with caution or you're just throwing away buy-ins. Like last night when i spent about 130 hands building a nice stack and a relative unknown gets it all in on the flop, I have AA, idiot called my 3bet with QT and flop comes down: 9KJ.

Just don't remove the nut straight from the villain's range, he may well have it. Two pair is pretty good, that's a call if there's straight potential, but people have such odd hands at these stakes that i personally am going to be calling all in/shoving a lot less, i've just pissed chips away doing that. However, if i get a good read AND some stats, it's somewhat different. But here we have neither it seems.

unknowns = caution.
 
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Lucothefish
Old 04-07-2009, 01:24 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 Your line looks like a bluff, his river raise could just be a response to that. Call it.

And why the hell would you fold to a min-3b? $0.30 for a $1.55 pot and he should fold? Come on.
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BooG690
Old 04-07-2009, 01:26 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 Let's keep the unknown honest...call him. Remember most players at these stakes are horrid. You're getting better than 5-1 odds to call with two pair. You may be behind...but you have the odds and you DO gain some information either way.

That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
 
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tyrn
Old 04-07-2009, 01:30 PM #10 (permalink)  
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This does look like a bad player trying to mess with you. But I also wouldn't put it past him to be a bad player playing aces or kings and min raising being his idea of value. Look him up though, this pot didn't get big and it's certainly worth knowing what he's doing this with, plus it could just be AQ. Also, MP3 is too early to be opening ATo in FR imo, and definitely unnecessary at micro stakes.
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Lucothefish
Old 04-07-2009, 01:37 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrn
Also, MP3 is too early to be opening ATo in FR imo, and definitely unnecessary at micro stakes.
Can you explain this one? Personally, if I ditched ATo from MP3 I'd feel dirty. Real dirty.
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tyrn
Old 04-07-2009, 01:59 PM #12 (permalink)  
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There's still 4 people left to act behind, and ATo is a dominated hand. Easy to get in way too deep with a loser, or have to lay it down to a 3-bet. I'd play it from button but that's about it. There's enough other opportunities at micro stakes to forgo playing these marginal hands while still making lots of profit. If I was playing players that actually noticed how I was playing, I might play these to balance my range. Since I'm not, I gladly only play my strong hands and bet for value.
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Carroters
Old 04-07-2009, 03:55 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrn
There's still 4 people left to act behind, and ATo is a dominated hand. Easy to get in way too deep with a loser, or have to lay it down to a 3-bet. I'd play it from button but that's about it. There's enough other opportunities at micro stakes to forgo playing these marginal hands while still making lots of profit. If I was playing players that actually noticed how I was playing, I might play these to balance my range. Since I'm not, I gladly only play my strong hands and bet for value.
Playing A10o only from the BU is way too tight imo. Micros make hands like A10 even more playable from the CO and MP3 and here's why.

1. We wont get 3 bet light very often at all so don't have to worry about being blown off our hand much preflop.

2. People will call us with worse hands and play passively post flop - so at stationy or passive tables we can open it for value and are missing out on a ton of value if we open fold it on the CO.

3. People play badly post flop in general at micros so if we do end up dominated it will be relatively easy to gauge where we're at and lose the minimum. Of course if you always go broke with A,10 on A 7 3r then hell yeah fold it on the CO until you fix this, but I'm guessing you don't.

I'd play this hand the same way and call river, we have awesome odds and are least ahead sometimes here. Calling the minraise preflop is mandatory with almost any 2 cards if villain has a decent stack behind. We turn our hand into an implied odds - hit hard or fold type of holding. So, we aren't looking to flop top pair (although this may be good) we're looking to make trips and stack his overpair or make a straight to stack his set etc etc.

Villain is making a horrible mistake with this minraise so call it and play perfectly against it imo. Folding preflop to the min raise is just failing to exploit an obvious leak.

 
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tyrn
Old 04-07-2009, 09:21 PM #14 (permalink)  
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I guess if the table isn't 3 betting except on monsters, or betting/raising on any streets, and always playing bad post flop when we are dominated, you could justify playing ATo. I just don't see a point of getting used to that.
Maybe I am too tight? running 12/8

Also, if the table is so passive, how many limpers in front before were no longer opening ATo from MP?
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Hoopy
Old 04-07-2009, 09:36 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Hoopy is an unknown quantity at this point
 I guess he might have thought you were bluffing on the river since you checked it through flop and turn.

Preflop you have 4-1 on the call, river 5-1, call both.
 
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Pig_Vomit
Old 04-07-2009, 10:33 PM #16 (permalink)  
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I may be wrong but I still think you should fold preflop and here is why.

Yes you’re your getting sexy odds to call but have horribly negative implied odds. Lets look at some possible scenarios.

You miss the flop completely 70%: what do you do now?

You make a pair on the flop. What worse hands can we extract value from? The pots we win here will be small.

You make your hand but villain continues to min raising you. You’re still getting great odds to call. This pot could potentiality get quite large.

In summary when you win it will be infrequent and small and when you lose you will get horribly owned.
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-07-2009, 11:17 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrn
There's still 4 people left to act behind, and ATo is a dominated hand. Easy to get in way too deep with a loser, or have to lay it down to a 3-bet. I'd play it from button but that's about it. There's enough other opportunities at micro stakes to forgo playing these marginal hands while still making lots of profit. If I was playing players that actually noticed how I was playing, I might play these to balance my range. Since I'm not, I gladly only play my strong hands and bet for value.
Sorry I don't follow hand charts, nor do I not play postionally aware poker.

I also know how to bet/fold so what makes AT so hard to play from here? Most of the time the CO and Button will fold anyway. What do you run at full ring like 7/5?
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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Micro2Macro
Old 04-07-2009, 11:20 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pig_Vomit
I may be wrong but I still think you should fold preflop and here is why.

Yes you’re your getting sexy odds to call but have horribly negative implied odds. Lets look at some possible scenarios.

You miss the flop completely 70%: what do you do now?

You make a pair on the flop. What worse hands can we extract value from? The pots we win here will be small.

You make your hand but villain continues to min raising you. You’re still getting great odds to call. This pot could potentiality get quite large.

In summary when you win it will be infrequent and small and when you lose you will get horribly owned.
This is what I was thinking when I looked back at my call preflop. Being oop and the reverse implied odds offered by this hand, I think it's a fold preflop. If it was suited though that changes a bit since there are more implied odds.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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Carroters
Old 04-08-2009, 01:12 AM #19 (permalink)  
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 I really think folding preflop is completely horrible.

 
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Pig_Vomit
Old 04-08-2009, 03:24 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
I really think folding preflop is completely horrible.
Care to explain this further? Basically you think its bad to lay down a dominated hand OOP and instead play it as a drawing hand despite its obvious lack of drawiness. Not saying its not doable if you’ve got really goot postflop skillz and the stacks are deep (I’d want atleast 200BB personally) Why do you think folding is “completely horrible”?
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Pig_Vomit
Old 04-08-2009, 04:16 AM #21 (permalink)  
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Also I think that a lot of player (myself included) greatly over estimate their post flop skillz and under estimate their opponents postflop skills. If villain knows enough to c-bet a wide range are equity quickly turns to shit. Also I don’t think we’re going to be making two pair and better type hands AND stacking our opponent to make the pre flop call +EV.
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:02 PM #22 (permalink)  
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ATo is close, it's basically the worst hand you'd open from MP3
but you forget that when we steal the blinds we probably make more money than whatever we make postflop with ATo on average

so even in NL50 ATo is a good hand to raise from that position because while you won't get that much money post-flop, the fact that a lot of people play tighter makes our raise have some blind stealing equity

although 98s to ATo on a tighter table because your semi-bluffs have higher fold equity
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