|
mtbottle
|
04-26-2005, 01:37 PM
Post subject: Which hand statistically busts AA most often?
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 21
|
|
Came up at a live game on Sunday, some said 5/6s, some said J9s, I was undecided. Time to clear it up!
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
sykotik489
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 99
|
|
the calc I have says 56s 23.1%, J9s ~21% 67s 78s and 89s are all better than J9s this is assuming that neither A is the same suit as the suited cards.
|
|
You should never wave at people you don't know, cause what if they don't have a hand. They'll think you're cocky. "Look what I got motherfucker, this thing is useful, I'ma go pick somethin up."
- Mitch Hedberg
|
|
arkana
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,109
|
|
The percentages for suited connectors (no gap) who do not share suits or cards used to make a straight with the Aces should be the same i think. 56s actually makes the higher straight (when the Aces make a straight) which I think makes it a (very) slight favourite (although then I suppose 67s should be even better).
I would have to say that 67s would be the best contender although poker stove ranks 56s slightly higher (23.056% vs 23.033%).
|
|
|
|
a500lbgorilla
|
|
JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
|
|
Well, 56s would obviously do better than J9s. J9 makes fewer straights.
Suited connecters 56-9T all crack aces the same. JT and 45 lose a few staights becuase 2 aces are gone.
-'rilla
|
Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
|
|
|
|
|
|
{This post has been removed}
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
5,6 and and 6,7 suited (with the suit being different from that of either of the aces) tie for being the hand that crack A,A the most often when heads up. However, 5,6 is the better hand to have because it will tie with A,A, slightly more than 6, 7 will.
|
|
|
|
SmackinYaUp
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B N L
Posts: 1,725
|
|
Daniel Negreanu's blog said somewhere that it was 67s i believe
|
|
|
|
Cocco_Bill
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Suited connecters 56-9T all crack aces the same.
|
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Cocco_Bill
a500lbgorilla wrote:
Suited connecters 56-9T all crack aces the same.
|
Not true.
|
|
|
|
Cocco_Bill
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Martini
Quote:
Originally posted by Cocco_Bill
a500lbgorilla wrote:
Suited connecters 56-9T all crack aces the same.
|
Not true. |
You are correct, its just not immidiately obvious why. 76s and 56s cracjk aces the best and the same. Thats because both win with against pocket aces 2345x board .
|
|
|
|
drmcboy
|
|
DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,602
|
|
This was a quiz on the WPT, they said 67s.
|
|
|
|
arkana
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,109
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Martini
Quote:
Originally posted by Cocco_Bill
a500lbgorilla wrote:
Suited connecters 56-9T all crack aces the same.
|
Not true. |
You are correct, its just not immidiately obvious why. 76s and 56s cracjk aces the best and the same. Thats because both win with against pocket aces 2345x board . |
Maybe if you read my post it might have been obvious. Then again sometimes I get the feeling the AutoMuteEuropeanPosters option might be enabled.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{This post has been removed}
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Ripptyde
just did the calculation on cardplayer and 6/7s is slightly higher than 8/9s
|
When trying to nitpick which hands have a slight edge over another, the calculator at cardplayer is not the place to go. It gives samplings from thousands of random hands dealt and gives different results when tried again. Worst of all, it doesn't account for ties. Try the hand simulator at PokerTips.org. It gives you the exact odds and accounts for ties. You will see that 5, 6 suited and 6, 7 suited (with the suit being different from that of either of the aces) crack A, A the same amount of times, but 5, 6 ties slightly more making it the best hand to go up against A, A with.
|
|
|
|
Cocco_Bill
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by arkana
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Martini
Quote:
Originally posted by Cocco_Bill
a500lbgorilla wrote:
Suited connecters 56-9T all crack aces the same.
|
Not true. |
You are correct, its just not immidiately obvious why. 76s and 56s cracjk aces the best and the same. Thats because both win with against pocket aces 2345x board . |
Maybe if you read my post it might have been obvious. Then again sometimes I get the feeling the AutoMuteEuropeanPosters option might be enabled. |
I am European and I was/am playing 4 tables of poker while reading this. Sorry i missed your post...
|
|
|
|
DaNutsInYoEye
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
|
|
I've always heard 56s faired best against aces.
|
|
TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
|
|
arkana
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,109
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
I am European and I was/am playing 4 tables of poker while reading this. Sorry i missed your post...
|
No worries, I just think most threads would shrink at least 30% if people bothered reading through all the posts before posting.
|
|
|
|
rdqlus
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 64
|
|
If 56s ties more often than 67s against AA then can someone tell me what the board is where 56s ties AA and 67s loses.
I always thought that 67s was the best hand.
Thanks.
mj
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
Quote:
Originally posted by rdglus
If 56s ties more often than 67s against AA then can someone tell me what the board is where 56s ties AA and 67s loses.
|
A, 2, 3, 4 and anything but an A or a 5.
|
|
|
|
SmackinYaUp
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B N L
Posts: 1,725
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Martini
Quote:
Originally posted by rdglus
If 56s ties more often than 67s against AA then can someone tell me what the board is where 56s ties AA and 67s loses.
|
A, 2, 3, 4 and anything but an A or a 5. |
Sorry I dont understand what kind of boards you are trying to describe here.
I guess I need pictures and sing-along songs to understand anything these days...
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
Disregard my last post, I misunderstood the question.
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
Quote:
Originally posted by rdqlus
If 56s ties more often than 67s against AA then can someone tell me what the board is where 56s ties AA and 67s loses.
|
Its not a tie that 67s will lose with.
5,6 and 6,7 both have the same number of straight possibilities, however, with 5, 6 there are three straights on the board that will tie (8,9,10,J,Q,- 9,10,J,Q,K,- 10,J,Q,K,A) and with 6,7 there are only two straights on the board that will tie (9,10,J,Q,K - 10,J,Q,K,A)
|
|
|
|
jobupoker
|
|
Straight
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 111
|
|
aren't you forgetting the boards where both a 5,6 or 6,7 come up?
ex:
5,6,7,8,9
|
|
|
|
arkana
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,109
|
|
What have you been smoking Martini?
We are talking about 56 vs AA in comparison to 67 vs AA, not 56 vs 67.
|
|
|
|
zenbitz
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
|
|
This is actually surprising difficult...
I don't think there are any boards that 56s ties AA that 67s doesn't tie...
So, it must be that 56s and 67s BOTH tie, but with 56 it occurs more often.
Since the both have a 6, it must be boards with a 7 in them that tie (not 5)
6789T/789TJ/89TJQ
No, this should be compensated by boards that use the 5...
23456/34567/45678/56789 - but three of those also use a 7, so they don't count.
23456 doesn't count either, since the 7 gives the sucker outer a win, not a tie. I
Note that the 56 edge is only 1 in 2,000.
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
Quote:
Originally posted by arkana
What have you been smoking Martini?
We are talking about 56 vs AA in comparison to 67 vs AA, not 56 vs 67.
|
Right. There is one more straight possibility (actually more than one, because I'm not accounting for different suits) with 56 vs AA that will tie, than there is with 6,7 vs AA.
|
|
|
|
arkana
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,109
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Martini
Quote:
Originally posted by arkana
What have you been smoking Martini?
We are talking about 56 vs AA in comparison to 67 vs AA, not 56 vs 67.
|
Right. There is one more straight possibility (actually more than one, because I'm not accounting for different suits) with 56 vs AA that will tie, than there is with 6,7 vs AA. |
Maybe I have been smoking something because I still don't get it, what is that possibility? Give me an example please.
|
|
|
|
Greedo017
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
|
|
ok, i wrote this post before i saw martini's below and, in short, he put exactly what i had. The only mistake you made, is each one has one less tying hand, because 910JQK is not a tying hand, it loses.
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
Quote:
Originally posted by jobupoker
aren't you forgetting the boards where both a 5,6 or 6,7 come up?
ex:
5,6,7,8,9
|
Yeah, I am.
With 5,6 there are 7 straights on the board that wil tie A,A:
2,3,4,5,6
3,4,5,6,7
4,5,6,7,8
5,6,7,8,9
6,7,8,9,10
7,8,9,10,J
8,9,10,J,Q
and with 6,7, there are only 6:
3,4,5,6,7
4,5,6,7,8
5,6,7,8,9
6,7,8,9,10
7,8,9,10,J
8,9,10,J,Q
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
Does the above post explain it arkana?
|
|
|
|
arkana
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,109
|
|
Erm, the original question was:
Quote:
|
If 56s ties more often than 67s against AA then can someone tell me what the board is where 56s ties AA and 67s loses.
|
So yes I understand 56 ties more often but when it does 67 does not lose.
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
That was not the original question arkana.
|
|
|
|
arkana
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,109
|
|
Ok you got me on a technicality Martini...
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Greedo017
here's a twist on it, anyone know what hand loses the most to aces? give you a hint, it wins less than 10% of the time.
|
A,6 and A,9 (where the 6 or 9 are one of the same suits as one of the Aces) both lose to Aces an equal amount of the time but A,6 is a worse hand because it ties less.
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
I don't know what you're getting at arkana. I never said anything about 6,7, not losing.
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
Here's one for ya Greedo
What's the most lopsided hole cards two players can go heads-up against each other with? Player A has what cards and Player B has what cards?
|
|
|
|
arkana
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,109
|
|
Quote:
Originally posted by rdqlus
If 56s ties more often than 67s against AA then can someone tell me what the board is where 56s ties AA and 67s loses.
|
rdqlus asked for an example where 56s would tie with AA but 67s would lose, which would explain why 56s has a higher win % than 67s against AA.
So you have shown that 56 ties more often, but have you shown why 56 would have a higher win % against AA than 67?
If the board is 2,3,4,5,6 then 56 ties but 67 wins so that only confirms to me that 67 is the favourite.
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
5,6 wins exactly as much as 6,7 does, but since it ties more often, it is the better hand to have.
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
Quote:
originally posted by arkana
If the board is 2,3,4,5,6 then 56 ties but 67 wins so that only confirms to me that 67 is the favourite.
|
What about when the board is x, x, 2, 3, 4, where either x is not a 6? Do you see how 5,6 hits as many straights as 6,7 does?
|
|
|
|
arkana
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,109
|
|
Yes I see how 56 hits as many straights as 76 does but the one extra tie you are talking about is a board where 76 would win not tie so how does that improve 56's win percentage?
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
Which extra tie?
|
|
|
|
arkana
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,109
|
|
2,3,4,5,6
The 7 would give 67 a higher straight.
|
|
|
|
ChezJ
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
|
|
i cracked AA with T9s last week playing $3/$6 at ft. mcdowell... it was f'ing beautiful.
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
Quote:
Originally posted by arkana
2,3,4,5,6
The 7 would give 67 a higher straight.
|
I didn't put 2,3,4,5,6 on the list that 6,7 would tie with.
|
|
|
|
arkana
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,109
|
|
I think we are misunderstanding each other...
Do you agree with me that 67s would have a higher win % (or at least equal) than 56s?
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
Read my first post in this thread again.
|
|
|
|
arkana
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,109
|
|
Quote:
|
5,6 and and 6,7 suited (with the suit being different from that of either of the aces) tie for being the hand that crack A,A the most often when heads up. However, 5,6 is the better hand to have because it will tie with A,A, slightly more than 6, 7 will.
|
Explain the last sentence. Your post where you give the boards that 56 ties with AA has one more tie namely 23456 than listed for 67s' ties with AA. But with that board 76 doesnt tie it wins.
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
I see what you're saying. Let me edit that list and then look at it again.
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.J.
Posts: 45
|
|
Okay.
|
|
|
|
arkana
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,109
|
|
Quote:
With 5,6 there are 3 boards that wil tie A,A:
6,7,8,9,10
|
67 will tie here as well.
|
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
Linear Mode
