Hand review: What did I do wrong here?

I'd raise .32 here preflop. On flop I'd make it .02. Turn def bet $2.5. River's an easy minbet.

Isn't this fold pre flop.

Originally Posted by !Luck

Isn't this fold pre flop.

why?

Your out of position, you have a hand that becomes very difficult to play against even best of flops. What calls you here that is going to make a you money? q9? jt? 99s? How much value can you get out of those hands out of position?

Originally Posted by !Luck

Your out of position,

How do you determine being "out of position"? I do understand the importance of position, but I've never been able to understand what being out of position really entails. I'll take a stab in the dark in that it means that I will always be anticipating villain's move i.e. his bet, rather than him anticipating my move...right?

you have a hand that becomes very difficult to play against even best of flops.

Obviously if I hit a QTT or even QTx flop, it's a good flop for me, no? I just need to understand your comment

What calls you here that is going to make a you money? q9? jt? 99s? How much value can you get out of those hands out of position?

What do you mean by this? Can you be a bit clearer? I'm completely new to poker theory.

Effectively he is on the hijack here since there are only 5 players. QTo could maybe be considered a decent stealing hand in that spot, but it is still arguable whether to fold or not here, probably depends a lot on the table and opponents.

Not a bad flop for you, but it does hit your opp's range as well as yours, and there are draws on the board, flush and straight. You have to bet more on the flop 3/4 of the pot minimum, but closer to full pot would be better. If opp calls that, he most likely either has a strong draw or a made hand that is quite likely to beat you and that he is slowplaying (maybe a set of kings). If he raises you, you are most likely beat, unless he overplays a JT or Tx. As it turns out, he probably called you on the flop with nothing because your smallish bet was looking weak and he maybe thought this was just a continuation bet. Or he was just not thinking at all, not infrequent at the micros.

On the turn, you hit top two pairs, great. Note that at this stage your pair of T is worth nothing, except for the unlikely event that a T shows up on the river. But the Q also completes or improves straight draws and again hits the range of your opponent as well as yours (if he also has a Q, you now have a kicker problem: your kicker is only T, his might well be better than that if he has QJ or AQ). You HAVE to bet on the turn (and strongly consider folding if you are raised). By betting, you make your opponent pay to draw. You also bet for value against worse hands. 2/3rd to 3/4 of the pot or thereabouts would be about right I think, because you also want to keep control of the pot size with a hand that is good but could easily be beat on such a board. You also bet for information, because if you are raised you know you are beat. If you are just called, you also have to worry a lot whether you are against a slowplayed made hand or against a guy who can't let go of his draw (or against a draw that is so strong that the odds for calling are almost correct, such as a combo straight and flush draw).

Either way, any card on the river that completes a straight or flush draw (like a 9) should worry you big time. As played, you can check the river or try a small blocking bet. If you are raised or bet into, then you have to decide whether your opponent is bluffing or not. If the answer is no, then you are almost certainly beat and you should fold. If you think your opponent is bluffing because you showed weakness on the flop, turn and river, then you can call. But you should never have got in this situation to start with.

Position: you are "in position", or you "have position" when you act AFTER your opponent(s) on a given street. You are out of position when you act BEFORE them. In the case of this hand, you are out of position against your opponent.

You should read a few books about poker theory. Sklansky's No Limit Theory and Practice is very good. So is Professional No Limit. You should also read as many articles as you can on this site and on twoplustwo.com. There are very good articles explaining pot odds, bet sizing, drawing odds calculations, the importance of position, which hands to play in which position, etc.

Finally, when you post hands, you should not post the results (don't say what your opponent had or who won the hand), because this influences how people reply. You should also give reads on your opponent (how was he playing, what was your table image what were his stats), and you should for every street try to define a range of hands that your opponent is likely to have according to his actions. Read this: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...684e1c6a841bac

Originally Posted by !Luck

Your out of position, you have a hand that becomes very difficult to play against even best of flops. What calls you here that is going to make a you money? q9? jt? 99s? How much value can you get out of those hands out of position?

How do we know we'll be OOP? How can you predict this hand we'll be hard to play against? Those and maybe even Q2/T2/etc. Depends.

Basically, he wrote absolutely no reads so how the hell can we even attempt to answer his questions?

!Luck - you can't just automatically assume your thoughts.

Why shouldn't I post results and how would it influence people?

Thanks for the great replies hitherto.

fold pre usually, b/f turn, if called c/f river

other than that though you need to do some poker reaDINg, you cant expect ppl posting here to teach u the entire game

Originally Posted by eragotte

fold pre usually, b/f turn, if called c/f river

other than that though you need to do some poker reaDINg, you cant expect ppl posting here to teach u the entire game

I am doing some reading, but I'm using the forum for what I read it was supposed to be for.

I think you played the hand fine, up until the river. On the flop, you'd like to bet and win the pot. So, I like your bet. When called on the flop you have to be concerned that your opp has a K. I like your check. On the river we can beat a bluff and very poor value bets (e.g., AT, Q-rag etc). We loose to any K, any full house, any straight (any J) and even AQ. Yuck!


This is a very juicy board hitting lots of different type of hands hard --- not a good one for your opp to value bet weak or bluff. His bet size on the river indicates a strong hand. I strongly prefer folding.

Originally Posted by kmind

Originally Posted by !Luck

Your out of position, you have a hand that becomes very difficult to play against even best of flops. What calls you here that is going to make a you money? q9? jt? 99s? How much value can you get out of those hands out of position?

How do we know we'll be OOP? How can you predict this hand we'll be hard to play against? Those and maybe even Q2/T2/etc. Depends.

Basically, he wrote absolutely no reads so how the hell can we even attempt to answer his questions?

!Luck - you can't just automatically assume your thoughts.

As soon as MP2 calls we know that we will be OOP relative to that opp as long as he is in the hand. QT is a difficult hand to play because it is easily dominated by hands like AA, KK, QQ AQ, KQ when you hit your hit top pair Q. Heck you are even outkicked by QJ! So there are strong opportunities to make mistakes by a) putting in too much money when you hare beat or b) letting draws in too cheaply. It is very tough to hit a monster with this hand. In contrast small pair are often easy to play, either you hit a set and havve amonster looking to get a tone of money in or you whiff and look to fold. Exceptions like gutshots are rare.

Lock thread. This is ridiculous

Originally Posted by kmind

Lock thread. This is ridiculous

WTF?

Dont come in here if you have nothing constructive to say.

Preflop is a completely standard raise and folding is a clear mistake.

What did you do wrong here? You didn't post any sorts of stats or reads and you didn't put your opponent on a range or make any sort of analysis of your own, that's what. Take this shit to the bad beat forum where it belongs.

Hi EasyP

Heres why we dont post results.

Originally Posted by EasyPoker

Button ($2.02)
SB ($5.16)
BB ($3.18)
Hero (UTG) ($5.18)
MP ($2.03)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, 10
Hero bets $0.06, MP calls $0.06, 2 folds, BB calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.19) K, K, 10 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.10, MP calls $0.10, 1 fold

Turn: ($0.39) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks

River: ($0.39) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.28, Hero calls $0.28

Total pot: $0.95 | Rake: $0

Results:
Hero mucked Q, 10 (two pair, Kings and Queens).
MP had J, 8 (straight, King high).
Outcome: MP won $0.95

I see the outcome.You should have folded,he had a straight

If I saw this instead

Button ($2.02)
SB ($5.16)
BB ($3.18)
Hero (UTG) ($5.18)
MP ($2.03)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, 10
Hero bets $0.06, MP calls $0.06, 2 folds, BB calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.19) K, K, 10 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.10, MP calls $0.10, 1 fold

Turn: ($0.39) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks

River: ($0.39) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.28, Hero ??

Any discussion now, wont be based on what he held

I think you could have posted this.
Button ($2.02)
SB ($5.16)
BB ($3.18)
Hero (UTG) ($5.18)
MP ($2.03)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, 10
[color=#CC3333]Hero ???

Fold preflop , would have been my advice, I think you need to make position a bigger proirity in your game.

A lot of the experts here wont help too much if they see results, or if you fail to give reads on your opponents. And there has been a big push towards getting us beginners to put villians on ranges ,spoon has made it his personal crusade .

Good luck (have you got your HUD yet?)

Edit :crappy english

Okay why are we folding QT two off of the button again?

Originally Posted by EasyPoker

WTF?

Dont come in here if you have nothing constructive to say.

Your original post means absolutely nothing. How anyone could even attempt to tell you the right plays is beyond absurd. I have given you hints and then told you why. Stop posting useless jibberish.

Who me?

Im folding QTo there, cos I cant handle a raise from them people acting after me.

Originally Posted by celtic123

Who me?

Im folding QTo there, cos I cant handle a raise from them people acting after me.

So you're folding everything you won't continue with against a 3-bet? Yeah that makes a lot of sense. What do you run, like 5/3?

[quote="spoonitnow"]

Originally Posted by celtic123

Who me?


So you're folding everything you won't continue with against a 3-bet? Yeah that makes a lot of sense. What do you run, like 5/3?

I highlighted everything in this response that is correct.

Q10o is a standard fold for me MP 6 handed so id think it would be similar here? id rather raise 98s tbh... CO obviously raise Q10 always but i dont think folding it utg 5 handed or mp 6 handed is very different either way... and with how easypokers game is looking id say its a standard standard fold...

[quote="celtic123"]

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by celtic123

Who me?


So you're folding everything you won't continue with against a 3-bet? Yeah that makes a lot of sense. What do you run, like 5/3?

I highlighted everything in this response that is correct.

You said you're not raising QTo because you cant handle a raise. As spoon pointed out, that logic clearly applies to every other hand...and thus u pretty much have to be running like 5/3...or 24/3 or something because there arent many hands at all that can stand up to a 3bet from people at this level (cuz their 3bet ranges are mainly for value).

So that argument is obviously false, since it has been proven before that running at 18/16 is profitable.

So now, why shouldnt we be opening QTo in the HJ?

could the answer to why we fold QTo from UTG Preflop be because is a load of old pony UTG preflop?

EDIT : Corrected the bad grammar

Originally Posted by celtic123

could the answer to why we fold QTo from UTG Preflop be because is a load of old pony UTG preflop?

EDIT : Corrected the bad grammar

By this logic, opening QTo from the button 3-way is clearly wrong since you're acting first preflop.

Also if you plan on learning anything you'll probably want to adjust your attitude a bit. I don't really care if you do or not, but you PMS way too quickly.

i feel like if i start putting q10 in my utg pfr range (and stuff like A9/K10/22-44 which i consider similar) im going to be running like 35/30 lol... can you elaborate spoon, what does your utg range include in 6max without any crazy situation like everyone behind you running 7/6?

Originally Posted by eragotte

i feel like if i start putting q10 in my utg pfr range (and stuff like A9/K10/22-44 which i consider similar) im going to be running like 35/30 lol... can you elaborate spoon, what does your utg range include in 6max without any crazy situation like everyone behind you running 7/6?

You know I like you so don't take it personally. This is just what I am trying to get across:

Why are everyone's ranges static? If playing 35/30 by raising those UTG is correct (most +EV) then of course add those. The original poster gave ZERO reads which means we have NO idea on if we should be raising this preflop, how much we should be raising preflop, how to play postflop, yadda yadda yadda

You know I like you so don't take it personally. This is just what I am trying to get across:

Why are everyone's ranges static? If playing 35/30 by raising those UTG is correct (most +EV) then of course add those. The original poster gave ZERO reads which means we have NO idea on if we should be raising this preflop, how much we should be raising preflop, how to play postflop, yadda yadda yadda

i got you`re point towards the original poster and i agree obviously, the ensuing conversation just intrigued me a lot, my pre range does change a lot, sometimes utg i toss kj no problem and sometimes im raising it up with 22 and 45s if i can get away with it. Q10 however is a snap fold all the time for me (you know how sometimes you`ve done something for so long it just becomes so standard that you do it and dont consider why?) i was surprised that spoon (presumably quite a solid player) would consider Q10 super standard pre with no reads as i would need to know i had a table full of passive fish to make a similar move. i run like 22.5/17 now with a goal of increasing it by raising the CO more and i didnt even consider that my utg and mp ranges could be so much wider.

We are not UTG. We are two seats off of the button. When I'm two seats off of the button, I need a really good reason not to open any two cards Ten and higher.

I think you guys are getting too attached to the label "UTG". UTG isn't a position, it's an indicator of the person who acts first preflop. The big blind is a position, the small blind is a position, the button is a position, and everything else is just X seats off of the button.

So I'm looking at what percentage of hands I've open-raised with this year from various positions. From the small blind backwards it's 53%, 46%, 28%, 19%, 12%. If you look at hands where it was 6 or less handed, I've only ran 21/19 with a 37% attempt to steal.

For the original hand, these stats tell me that I'm opening about 19% of hands on average so far this year over 25k hands or so. That's the equivalent of all pocket pairs, all broadways, and a few other hands.

And above comments that came across as attitude were my failed attempt at wit. I appericiate your advice , I certainly wouldnt be beating the micros without it.

I Really dont get what your trying to get me to realise in this thread here Spoon.Im genuinly missing the logic.

Let me start here.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, 10
[color=#CC3333]Hero ???

[i]Fold preflop

I thought I was giving sound advice.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Okay why are we folding QT two off of the button again?

I figured you were agreeing with me and wanted to see if I could explain in more detail and give a good reason for the fold.

Originally Posted by celtic123

Who me?

Im folding QTo there, cos I cant handle a raise from them people acting after me.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

So you're folding everything you won't continue with against a 3-bet? Yeah that makes a lot of sense. What do you run, like 5/3?

I dont fold for fear of a 3-bet and I run at 19/16 . I totally missed the extended logic, Ive re-read this and still miss the logic process.

Originally Posted by JKDS

You said you're not raising QTo because you cant handle a raise. As spoon pointed out, that logic clearly applies to every other hand...and thus u pretty much have to be running like 5/3...or 24/3 or something because there arent many hands at all that can stand up to a 3bet from people at this level (cuz their 3bet ranges are mainly for value).

So that argument is obviously false, since it has been proven before that running at 18/16 is profitable.

So now, why shouldnt we be opening QTo in the HJ?[/.

Here ,I figure JKDS is agreeing thats it right to fold QTo.UGT , but is promting for better reasons and reinforcing spoons logic, which I still cant grasp

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

By this logic, opening QTo from the button 3-way is clearly wrong since you're acting first preflop.

So here I am now . Lost in the logic . I just dont get what I dont see.

I thought it was correct to fold QTo Preflop from UTG (no reads )

Because Its Easily dominated and way OOP . Am I way off still ?

You say you should fold QTo because you're UTG. However, if you're 3-handed by your logic you should fold QTo on the button because you're UTG. That's why your reason doesn't make sense.

Ah, Ive got you now ,the OP from the HH said UTG .

Ive just spent an hour re-reading , cutting and pasting , re-arranging syntax and I overlooked "two off the button".

Big difference.

Thank you.

We are not UTG. We are two seats off of the button. When I'm two seats off of the button, I need a really good reason not to open any two cards Ten and higher.

I think you guys are getting too attached to the label "UTG". UTG isn't a position, it's an indicator of the person who acts first preflop. The big blind is a position, the small blind is a position, the button is a position, and everything else is just X seats off of the button.

So I'm looking at what percentage of hands I've open-raised with this year from various positions. From the small blind backwards it's 53%, 46%, 28%, 19%, 12%. If you look at hands where it was 6 or less handed, I've only ran 21/19 with a 37% attempt to steal.

For the original hand, these stats tell me that I'm opening about 19% of hands on average so far this year over 25k hands or so. That's the equivalent of all pocket pairs, all broadways, and a few other hands.

this is helpful thank you. i understand utg is very different in different circumstances hence i was comparing it to mp 6 handed. wow i cant believe u raise out of the sb 53% of the time holy shit

Originally Posted by eragotte

We are not UTG. We are two seats off of the button. When I'm two seats off of the button, I need a really good reason not to open any two cards Ten and higher.

I think you guys are getting too attached to the label "UTG". UTG isn't a position, it's an indicator of the person who acts first preflop. The big blind is a position, the small blind is a position, the button is a position, and everything else is just X seats off of the button.

So I'm looking at what percentage of hands I've open-raised with this year from various positions. From the small blind backwards it's 53%, 46%, 28%, 19%, 12%. If you look at hands where it was 6 or less handed, I've only ran 21/19 with a 37% attempt to steal.

For the original hand, these stats tell me that I'm opening about 19% of hands on average so far this year over 25k hands or so. That's the equivalent of all pocket pairs, all broadways, and a few other hands.

this is helpful thank you. i understand utg is very different in different circumstances hence i was comparing it to mp 6 handed. wow i cant believe u raise out of the sb 53% of the time holy shit

I think the bold portion is the important part to remember. I'm certainly no expert, but this seems right.

Originally Posted by Trashcona

Originally Posted by eragotte

We are not UTG. We are two seats off of the button. When I'm two seats off of the button, I need a really good reason not to open any two cards Ten and higher.

I think you guys are getting too attached to the label "UTG". UTG isn't a position, it's an indicator of the person who acts first preflop. The big blind is a position, the small blind is a position, the button is a position, and everything else is just X seats off of the button.

So I'm looking at what percentage of hands I've open-raised with this year from various positions. From the small blind backwards it's 53%, 46%, 28%, 19%, 12%. If you look at hands where it was 6 or less handed, I've only ran 21/19 with a 37% attempt to steal.

For the original hand, these stats tell me that I'm opening about 19% of hands on average so far this year over 25k hands or so. That's the equivalent of all pocket pairs, all broadways, and a few other hands.

this is helpful thank you. i understand utg is very different in different circumstances hence i was comparing it to mp 6 handed. wow i cant believe u raise out of the sb 53% of the time holy shit

I think the bold portion is the important part to remember. I'm certainly no expert, but this seems right.

You are correct and omfg I love Julia Bond.

ya i know it was open-raised but still a lot more than i do... new thing to work on.

Can I just clarify:

An open-raise is the first person to raise, right? So, is it the same as a bet?

wow this thread went horribly wrong. Couple points to make

QT is fine from MP considering that like kmind was trying to point out, half the table left to act is in the blinds and we can play in position quite often so long as your confident in being able to not play this hand 5 ways or if the button and CO will fold often enough and aren't complete noobs playing 50% of hands. It is $2NL so chances are not but the hands tehy call with will be pretty bad a ton of th time anyway, just don't play for stacks without knowing opponents if an A or T hits the flop.

As for Spoons 53% figure yes that is right erragote. Unless the BB plays defends 40% of his hands then you instantly profit. If he calls a ton and folds to Cbets plenty then it's just profit.

"What did I do wrong here?"

You posted results.

Originally Posted by EasyPoker

Can I just clarify:

An open-raise is the first person to raise, right? So, is it the same as a bet?

An open-raise is the first person to raise. This is not the same as a bet. Preflop, the blinds are the first bet.

As for Spoons 53% figure yes that is right erragote. Unless the BB plays defends 40% of his hands then you instantly profit. If he calls a ton and folds to Cbets plenty then it's just profit.

what size raise are you using to do this math? i was given the advice to raise 4x when raise sb into bb, im guessing you used 3x

so 5bb to win 2bb, okay ya that makes sense, thinking aloud. thanks, thats cool, so much free money lying around the table.

2.5BB to win 1.5BB the blind is not yours, it's already part of the pot.

lmaooo im actually retarded i was thinking of it in 1/2 nl raise 5$ more to win 2$. not only did i forget bout my sb but also called dollars bbs and then saw 2/5=40% then thought .. k, must be what hes talking about. fool proof editing ftw

but ya, what you said hahaah