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Poker Forum |
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| Chopper |
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i dont know where this will go because its such a complex subject, but maybe we can get pointed in the right direction. we know to assign ranges instead of "he has KJ." and play against the range, but... what are some of the easier tips you know of when assigning ranges? be specific, be general. just be something. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece! 
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting! | ||||
| Jack Sawyer |
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| I read souls | |||
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My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...
 Quote:
http://youtu.be/lGdnIrRKDTI
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| Monty3038 |
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| This is something I'd like to see replies to as well... as a noob often I see a K-J-7 flop and think my opponent has to have K's or J's to be betting... this is often not the case and I dump out of hands I should have potentially stayed in... (ok, it isn't a coherent example, but you get my point I hope) | |||
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| shazbox |
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I would say experience. Like hunting, there is no set way to find what you're hunting, you gotta learn. Use reads/stats on people. E.G. A guy has never raised you ever before in the last 18 hours you've been playing with him, and all of a sudden he is raising and 4 betting you on this hand, obviously he is going to be at the strong end of his range that you have him on. Stuff like that, I'm not that great at it, but that is my basic knowledge on the subject. |
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| GatorJH |
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unless you have an extensive number of hands to judge people you are better off with ranges broken down by limp versus range with these opening up as you get closer and closer to the button. For example at the $5 and $11 SNG level it may be very common for people to open raise from UTG, UTG+1 or MP1 with a range like AQ+, 88+ but the limp (or call a limp) range from the Hijack, CO or button may be 22+, 89s+, ATo+ while their raising range from this position could be the same as the EP raising range. Once you are able to assign ranges based on position and action (open limp, call w/limpers, raise, etc.) then you can assess how you are doing against that particular "seat", not player in post flop play. In general I assign a pretty tight range to early position raisers and late position re-raises then open up that range as the position gets closer to the button and/or the blinds get larger. |
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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| XTR1000 |
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Be observant when ppl show down. Make notes. Look for certain lines, when opponent has the goods. Do they donk sets, play call-raise or call-call-raise? Learn to read your HUD well. Play HU. Seriously. Verbalize your thoughts when u play, assign a range to him every hand. Try to figure out, WHY u´re giving him a certain range, what patterns actually made u think he´s holding this or that. Leave table and look for a softer opponent if u can´t predict his ranges precisely after 45min |
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| Monty3038 |
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| Thanks for the quick responses, I'm trying to learn to do that, one thing I think would be helpful is a HUD but being a low limit player, with a very minimal BR at this point, that isn't an option. I hope to hone my skills soon though and raise that BR up to respectable levels, where I can consider some HUDs and other tools. | |||
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| bjsaust |
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One of the tips I liked (I think this was from Aokrongly first, not sure), is that betting is the same as a conversation. What you're trying to do is interpret that conversation. A bet is "I really like my hand", a call is "I kind of like my hand or I think it can improve", a check is "I dont like my hand", stuff like that. Of course, just like any conversation, someone could be lieing... The trick to hand reading is to take what message is in the betting (and you're looking at all streets, not just the current one) and think of which hands make sense and would fit into whats being said in the betting. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| Ash256 |
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Get his PF range (which will probably be wide) then cut hands out of it according to information you receive. Of course, that's way easier said than done! |
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| Chopper |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| wesrman |
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Great thread idea Chopper, i really need help in this. Hopefully a lot of people respond. Thanks... |
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| bjsaust |
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I think its pretty much been laid out. Come up with an initial range based on their history, if noone, revert to a 'default' range. Eliminate hands from that range that dont make sense based on the action (or select the ones that do make sense, depending on how your mind works best). Thats your range. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| flomo |
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i need alot of help in this area |
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| Chopper |
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all right. then, i'll do it. i suck at this, but lets try it this way for awhile. PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver) UTG ($47.70) MP1 ($36.40) Hero ($24.40) CO ($8.95) Button ($23.35) SB ($26) BB ($25) Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T  , K. UTG calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, 1 fold, BB checks. Flop: ($1.35) K  , J, K (5 players)BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $1.5, Button folds, BB folds, UTG calls $1.50, MP1 folds. what ranges are you putting villains on right now? i dont have any reads on him that are worth a shit. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Chopper |
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limped pot pre....assuming everyone has shit for cards. trips on flop. no brainer to lead here. overbet slightly and get a caller....hmmmmm. caller went check/call overbet pot. not AA, would have raised pre most likely. no KK, QQ, JJ, AK...same reasons. AQ? KJ? KXs? QJ? QT? pp's? maybe TT, but i cant see worse on this flop. what else? maybe QT doesnt get in here pre because i cant see it limping UTG, but it WOULD check/call a flop bet, and i have no reads...so i assume its in there now. anyone want to make changes? add some things i've left out? |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Chopper |
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if we have to do this ^^^^^ over and over and over with different hands, we'll get there. just glad to see some others are in. ooooh, triple post....nice. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| wesrman |
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Please continue. Very helpfull. |
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| wesrman |
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards) UTG+1 ($11.05) MP1 ($2.55) MP2 ($4.11) Hero ($4.93) Button ($3.78) SB ($6.44) BB ($8.37) UTG ($9.67) Preflop: Hero is CO with  ,  . 1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.1, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.45, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.35. Flop: ($0.97)  ,  ,  (2 players)UTG+1 bets $0.1, Hero raises to $0.9, UTG+1 calls $0.80. Turn: ($2.77)  (2 players)UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $3.58 (All-In), UTG+1 folds. Final Pot: $-0.81 |
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| Chopper |
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hold on. lets try and to this one hand at a time. otherwise we will confuse the shit out of ourselves. if there are a few hands going, though, we could refer to them by HERO's hole cards. for instance, mine would be the KcTc hand. wes' is the AcAd hand. and, i think it would be better to avoid showing the WHOLE hand at first. just show the flop...we'll narrow it down. then, show turn...we'll narrow it down. then, show river for final decisions? |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| wesrman |
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Sorry Chopper, if u want i can erase it until u are done with your hand??? Think u might get more response if u move this to another section??? I'm not sure a lot of the people that would have a lot to say here check the beginner section that often. Just a thought. |
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| flomo |
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these i think are possible hands for the villian i suck at this, but i'll at least try Aj,qj,j10 or they have the 4th k and are "slow playing" it our bet looks like we are trying to steal the pot which is how i would bet it |
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| bjsaust |
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KTs Without reads we wont assume UTG is open limping with complete crap here, so lets look at the kinds of hands that would limp and narrow it down. All PPs. KQ, KJ, QJ, QT, TJ, Ax, SCs non-broadway are probably the bulk of his PF range. Of those, which do we see c/c'ing our flop overbet? KJ and KQ would likely either bet or c/r here. QJ and TJ would flat call. Ax might flat call thinking they have a good kicker if you're bluffing. I'd say PPs 66+ could call also. PPs love to call these paired flops, but generally the really low ones will still fold. If he's come along with really crap cards on the flop he might have a K with no kicker here sometimes too. So of his range we'd believe we're ahead of everything except an unlikely KQ, or a slowplayed KK,JJ. We have reason to believe we're ahead of his range, so our plan should be to bet for value now. AA You have AA, you dont need to read his hand! Ok, seriously (although not far off), UTG has raised PF and called your 3-bet. Very unlikely to have a 5 or 6 except for some slim chance he's overplayed 55 or 66. Fairly unlikely though. So his range is mostly PPs > 66 (probably TT+ since he raised pre, but some people raise almost all PPs). Something like an AK or AQ that doesnt want to admit its beaten is also possible. This means we're almost certain we're ahead, so I dont get the turn push. We want value here. If you think you might be beaten, theres not a chance in hell he's folding here with a boat, so all you've done is cost yourself value from something like QQ or AK. Our only decision is whether we believe he'll call a turn bet and river push, or if he's more likely to fold to a turn bet but call a river bet. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| GatorJH |
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Quote:
Now the flop. I can't see villian having a K here as he probably would have check/raised. I could see a hand with a J in it or T's, maybe 9's or someone who was hoping to limp/3bet Q's or A's pre-flop and is now scared of the two K's. Net, net....there are numerous hands here that villian would check/call on the flop with and you are ahaed of just about every one of them. |
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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| mrhappy333 |
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3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
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| bjsaust |
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lol, I'm a dumbarse. Yes, you're right. Umm, so that leaves KQ, KJ, and JJ, and we'd expect all of those to raise flop. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| Jack Sawyer |
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a) microstakes b) no pf raise c) no real draws on flop, you hold a K making him holding a K less probable When in a limped pot, you'll find yourself playing a very dangerous version of "The Guessing Game" and will usually be fucked unless you happened to have flopped, turned, or rivered absolute gin |
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My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...
Quote:
http://youtu.be/lGdnIrRKDTI
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| flomo |
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| i'm getting it all in with the chopper hand | |||
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| kmind |
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| weeeeeeeeee ben | |||
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| wesrman |
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| I think he means to take away KK because we have one and 2 are on the board, making him having KK impossible. | |||
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| Chopper |
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lets continue the KTs hand, as i wasnt done. i just wanted people to watch how we narrow a range as the hand moves onward with more information... PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver) UTG ($47.70) MP1 ($36.40) Hero ($24.40) CO ($8.95) Button ($23.35) SB ($26) BB ($25) Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T , K. UTG calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, 1 fold, BB checks. Flop: ($1.35) K , J, K (5 players)BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $1.5, Button folds, BB folds, UTG calls $1.50, MP1 folds. Turn: ($4.35) 8 (2 players)UTG checks, Hero bets $3.5, UTG calls $3.50. did anything change? of course, we picked up a redraw. i am 2 barreling here because i am WAY ahead of most of his range. but, lets realize that not much that called the flop is folding here. straight draws just got picked up by 99. and flush draws to any stoooooopid AXs just fell in there (although i think this is rather unlikely). i am pretty much looking to felt this hand right now, or at the very least string along whatever is still calling. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| bjsaust |
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Not really no, except we removed KK from his range because we did a quick count during dealing and realised 5ks were unlikely... Possibly can discount straight draws a little bit since its less likely for them to call an overbet and a 3/4 pot bet on the turn, but still possible. Our main concern is a PP filling up, but his flat call discounts that. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| Pythonic |
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| Why would KJ raise this flop? I do not understand. | |||
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Never bet on a white man in the heavyweight division!
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| bjsaust |
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| You dont understand why someone with the (near) nuts would raise at 25nl? | |||
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Just playing to improve.
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| wesrman |
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Hes probably looking at the AA hand. Which is my fault i didnt realize chopper was going to add the rest of the hand. |
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| pgil |
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I don't think you can rule out a strong K in the KTs hand, especially with the flop overbet. People love to slowplay trips. With the turn C/C I think we are down to some J's, JJ+, QT, and Kx with an outside shot at 88. Gotta figure most other underpairs are giving up on the turn. I would almost expect a weaker K than yours to raise this turn, but can see KJ/JJ/K8/88 flat calling the turn. since we have no reads whatsoever we don't know if our opponent realizes he is out of position, or what that will mean when it comes to the river. With no read whatsoever, I may check behind the river given the chance. I would hope that you would have at least a general feeling about whether or not our opponent is a total moron. That kind of knowledge could really help us play the river a lot better. |
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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| bjsaust |
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| Noone said rule them out, what I said was they're unlikely based on the action. I think we probably lose value if we check behind on the river (assuming checked to us), but I dont hate it. I'm far from an expert on the correct lines to take. | |||
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Just playing to improve.
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| Chopper |
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this is not a river to check, imo. there is a lot worse that will still call. and on the river, something that has us beat will certainly announce itself. the only thing that will shut me off betting this river for value is the 3rd club or straight card like an A. those will make me c/call a small river bet. but, if a blank hits i am valuebetting this river rather small, but wondering about what to do to a push... so, here it is... PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver) UTG ($47.70) MP1 ($36.40) Hero ($24.40) CO ($8.95) Button ($23.35) SB ($26) BB ($25) Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T , K. UTG calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, 1 fold, BB checks. Flop: ($1.35) K , J, K (5 players)BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $1.5, Button folds, BB folds, UTG calls $1.50, MP1 folds. Turn: ($4.35) 8 (2 players)UTG checks, Hero bets $3.5, UTG calls $3.50. River: ($11.35) 9 (2 players)UTG checks, Hero bets $5, UTG raises to $13.75, Hero ??? just what i suspected may happen, and this is where it is absolutely CRITICAL to know your opponent and his range. are we far enough ahead here? did he trap us? is he stupid? this is sending a very strong message that our kicker may not be good enough here, imo. but, do we still beat his range hard enough to overcome this push...most times? our read? K8 and K9 just got there...and they would have likely been only calling. QT just hit his open-ender. KJ had us the whole time. so did JJ. AA is likely not here, but may have called along the way. KQ may be in there. the more i look at it, the more i dont like leading this river. is it a c/c or c/f? i think a check would show enough weakness to get AA, KX, naked J to pull the trigger on a bluff, but they wouldnt call a river bet most likely? therefore, i think we may have committed a cardinal sin, AGAINST LIKELY HOLDINGS, and bet when only better calls, but worse folds. any disputes to the river mistake? |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Dude_Here |
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Thats a hard river. That hand stinks like it got there on the river. B/c you bet into your trip kings I can see him putting you a little weaker than you are. My gut says he's calling you with a worse K maybe %30 of the time and got there with a Q,10 draw %55 and a K,8/9 the other %15. Numbers are out of my ass but that's my read on this. Great topic chopper |
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| pgil |
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basically, after he CRes this river, we are ahead of K7-K2, busted flushes, and that is about it. And, honestly, I don't see a lot of busted flushes taking the chance on a CR. K7-2 is still possible, especially given the stakes, but I don't know. He played it the whole way like he has trips or a boat and didn't want to scare you off, and you don't beat a lot in that range. Like I said, I would check behind on this river, and the reason is I would also probably call this raise. |
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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| Chopper |
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Quote:
how do you want to check-behind, but call his push?? that, to me, just seems like saying, "i want this to be small, but if he makes it really big, i will snap call." please explain, if possible, and help me see this one cause i cant. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Chopper |
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in the meantime, lets not forget this one... Quote:
he donks the flop suggesting some sort of draw, weak overpair, or monster begging for a raise. w/o a read, i have no idea, so i raise it big because i think he's ahead and will call, and i can flush out monsters that were begging for a raise. kind of get more information...but only while i think i am very likely ahead. but he calls still? can this guy let go of overpairs? am i starting to think about SIZING for stacks by river here? does he have A3s? i dont know how to put this guy on a range because he is playing this really, really weird. turn comes, and we shove? i dont know if i can do that yet. but, i also see we only have $3.50 behind and need to make a large bet when he checks. i may bet $1.50 here and then put the rest in on river...try to get something more from JJ-KK and any stupid flush draws. but, when pushing while we dont know if he can/will fold, we are likely still only getting called by the hands that beat us. this is the trick part of microstakes, imo. the range is still rather wide here, and we have no read that villain "cant fold overpairs." if i see that read in my notes...i MAY push here, but if he cant fold overpairs, why would i push? i dont see JJ or worse calling the push here, but they may have called a smaller bet. wow. weird hand. i dont know where i stand....sometimes i push here, too, in an attempt to just end it now, BUT THAT IS A MISTAKE! we are likely so far ahead, or so far behind, we just need to bet for value and take our chances. dont blow out the crap that may call. w/o stats or reads, we havent a clue where we are here, imo. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Monty3038 |
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| Chopper |
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3 J's is definitely in there. but, its not the ONLY hand that is. therefore giving him credit for it, w/o more information, when we beat so much else is pulling the plug too early. to determine that, you need a specific read. like "slowplays big hands" or "chases flush draws." those types of reads will help you narrow or widen his range...giving you more combinations to value your hand against. if your read on his range and tendencies is accurate enough, it just comes down to math. i dont have any of those reads here, so i can only go off of how most players would play this hand with a range that makes common sense. and, i am not great at that. that is why i started this thread. i want experienced players, and noobs to watch this and put in their two cents. the only way we learn is to put ourselves out there, and get things wrong. oh, and get flamed for it...lol. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Pythonic |
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| pgil |
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That being the case, I check behind without a donkey read. even a vague feeling that he is a moron will lead me to happily get it AI here. that doesn't mean I think this is the best way to play this river, this is just how I would play it given my weaknesses/leaks. hope that helps. |
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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| pgil |
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I would have added something to the effect of our hand being fairly easy to read if I thought our opponent was doing this. betting 3 streets with a pair on board in a multi-way limped pot is usually trips. we have a pretty weak hand if you take this into account. if our opp is putting us on a K, he can safely check-call flop and turn and CRAI on the river when he has us beat because we aren't going to be doing a lot of checking in this hand, and if we aren't drawing dead, we are drawing pretty damn thin. |
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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| Chopper |
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helps a lot. thanks. so, what you are saying is that the check behind is a direct result of you being a payoff wizard? you are not alone, i can tell you that. however, i am willing to b/f...so i pull the trigger more often. fyi, i folded to the push. so, i have no clue what he had. but, i WAS beat, i can tell you that much. whether i was behind or sucked out on is irrelevant, to me. i was beat by the river. i think it would have been better to check behind, too, though. not because i cant fold to the push, but because i think there was evidence out that i wasnt far enough ahead of his range to bet for value. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Pythonic |
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| Villian had KJ all day long! | |||
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Never bet on a white man in the heavyweight division!
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| Andrew |
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Some people are able to limp, even UTG with big pairs if they get the urge. But discounting a trick play preflop for AK/AQ/AJ/KJ/JJ then I do think it's more likely he has Ax/Kx/QT/Jx. I'm just curious at the c/c on this flop. Quote:
Am I totally off the mark with my ranges? |
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| wesrman |
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I dont want to let this thread just die. Reading hands is the key to poker, and i need to get good at it. So im posting a hand. If its not a good example feel free to post a different one. Opponent is 46/16/11, although thats after only 60 hands. PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards) saw flop|saw showdown MP1 ($3.86) MP2 ($6.82) CO ($2.57) Button ($5.09) SB ($13.75) BB ($7.86) UTG ($5.03) Hero ($4.94) Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with  , . 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.2, 2 folds, CO calls $0.20, 2 folds, BB calls $0.15. Flop: ($0.62)  ,  ,  (3 players)BB checks, Hero bets $0.55, CO calls $0.55, BB folds. Turn: ($1.72)  (2 players)Hero bets $1.5, CO raises to $1.82, Hero calls $0.32. River: ($5.36)  (2 players)Final Pot: $5.36 |
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05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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| According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... | |
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