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Is this hand planning okay against a maniac? (slightly long)

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Outlaw

10-06-2009, 04:26 AM Post subject: Is this hand planning okay against a maniac? (slightly long)

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 1,033

Villain is running 70/50/9.0 with a 10% 3-bet over 200 hands. I have seen him 3bet with A8o from the cutoff to a ep raiser and then go all the way postflop with bottom pair. He fires 3 barrels in every hand and has been running over the table, he started with $5 and is up to $17. I have, however, seen him fold to 3bets/4bets and check/raises postflop a handful of times.

I am running 13/11/2.5 btw in case he is paying attention. I have not shown anything down yet and have 3bet once or twice but have played 0 hands against villain.

I have 100BBs and my plan is to check call 2 streets and check/raise (or shove) the river with any piece. I want to get his stack before someone else has the chance and I felt the best way to get it all in the middle is to wait for any above average hand and then let him fire his way into the poorhouse.

However, his river shove made me jump out of my seat. I had planned on being the one raising the river and I realized I didn't have a plan for if he did this. I couldn't think of any hand he would suddenly overbet the river like this with as he had not done it once in 200 hands.

My first instinct was to fold but then I realized he was making it easy for me to get all of the money in here and that a shove on the river screamed bluff.

My final decision on calling (at the risk of leveling myself) was that maybe this guy actually was a thinking player and he thought he could make top pair, JJ, 99 etc lay down to a shove but that a valuebet would definitely get called.

Since his range is all over the damn place, I figured folding top pair (or even second pair for that matter) was hugely exploitable. If I get into habits of laying down here, I'll get torn up at higher limits.

My questions:
1. Is my plan sound or should I be 3betting this guy? What's our 3bet range against him?
2. Is check/calling a drawy flop and turn okay in this instance?
3. Is folding this river mathematically ever okay?
4. If my river call is okay, what range should we be calling the river here with?
5. What is our continuing range on the flop?
6. What boards should we be playing faster with our continuing range?
7. Is there a better way to plan against these types?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

MP2 ($17.20)
MP3 ($1.65)
CO ($1.85)
Button ($7.85)
SB ($10.05)
Hero (BB) ($10)
UTG ($2)
UTG+1 ($10.20)
MP1 ($5.20)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, Q

2 folds, MP1 calls $0.10, MP2 bets $0.50, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.40, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.15) Q

, 5

, 4

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50

Turn: ($2.15) 6

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $1, Hero calls $1

River: ($4.15) 10

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $15.20 (All-In), Hero calls $8 (All-In)

Total pot: $20.15 | Rake: $0.95

Sorry for the lengthy post. I don't post many hands but prefer to post ones that revolve more around planning our hands around commitment against various ranges and player types. These types of posts are necessarily longer.

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oskar

10-06-2009, 04:40 AM

#2 (permalink)

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What's his fold to 3b, cb%, fold cb to raise, fold to donk bet?

Without any of that - say I'm about to time out at 5 tables so I can't check the stats and player notes, then I'd c/r the flop and take control of the betting. As played river is a fold if you have no note on that.

Don't assume that his preflop stats are indicative of his post flop play.

clvacva

10-06-2009, 05:56 AM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 200

If he is so aggressive then he might expect you to look him up here with just Top Pair cuz of his image.

surviva316

10-06-2009, 06:37 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by clvacva

If he is so aggressive then he might expect you to look him up here with just Top Pair cuz of his image.

this is a bad bad bad bad bad case of leveling yourself. the dude's a 70/50, do we really think he's considering his image?

anyway, it's hard to say what you should do PF because we haven't been given any reads or stats on what his continuing range is going to be and how he's gonna play in 3b pots.

flop seems like it should be a c/r, and then worry about c/letting him spew on later streets. he's gonna treat Q9 like the nuts anyway, so we're getting value from plenty, and he's gonna float all kinds of weird stuff because he has no idea how to play poker.

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Robb

10-06-2009, 10:32 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by surviva316

anyway, it's hard to say what you should do PF because we haven't been given any reads or stats on what his continuing range is going to be and how he's gonna play in 3b pots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oskar

As played river is a fold if you have no note on that...Don't assume that his preflop stats are indicative of his post flop play.

@surviva/oskar - i'm confused - y'all seem to be complaining we don't have postflop reads (see below in bold).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Villain is running 70/50/9.0 with a 10% 3-bet over 200 hands. I have seen him 3bet with A8o from the cutoff to a ep raiser and then go all the way postflop with bottom pair. He fires 3 barrels in every hand and has been running over the table, he started with $5 and is up to $17. I have, however, seen him fold to 3bets/4bets and check/raises postflop a handful of times.

This is marginal, outlaw, in my opinion, but there are two principals at work. Yeah, he's playing maniac (principal 1), but folks willing to shove the river at the micros pretty much mean business (principal 2). Big river bluffs don't happen all that often, so I'm inclined to infer from the betting patterns he's got TPGK at worst. He could play this way with a set, 2 pair or even an overpair, so I end up agreeing with oskar on how to play it.

I would SO love to look this guy up, though, and I don't think it's horrible to do it here.

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WillburForce

10-06-2009, 11:36 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Location: SW London

Posts: 516

WillburForce will become famous soon enough

i look this up.

he has busted flush draws, q-x, 10-x hands that maniacs do this with.

If i lose, reload and get him next time.

Normski

Outlaw

10-06-2009, 01:43 PM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 1,033

Quote:

Originally Posted by oskar

With only 200 hands all of those stats aren't really relevant yet imo. Its the crazy showdowns I have seen from him that made me decide on how to exploit him.

Robb- A shove to me from this type of player always screams "please fold, I missed a draw or have a hand that doesn't want a showdown"

My plan on how to extract the most from him was to walk the dog. I don't do this often, but with this guy it seemed right.

Micro2Macro

10-06-2009, 02:33 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Given your read I think you played the hand fine. A c/r is always an option somewhere early to take control and value town him, but since you say he's going to have so much air in his range, feeding him rope should be adequate. If you have seen him overbet shove on a busted draw I'm never folding as played. Let's not get results oriented here.

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oskar

10-06-2009, 03:02 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

With only 200 hands all of those stats aren't really relevant yet imo.

this guy is playing as many flops as raiser in 200 hands as a 15/10 is in 1000.
It would be nice to know if he gives up to raises.
I missed the barrel part.
The river is still a fold. That is what you call a microNL value bet imo. If you've never seen him do that, that's not a bluff.
If any of you can show me a HH where villain bets, bets, 2x shoves river, and shows up with a missed draw, I'll ship you a dollar.

WillburForce

10-06-2009, 03:14 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2006

Location: SW London

Posts: 516

Oskar,

you see this move all the timed from what I remember at $10nl, and I see it now from the maniacs who pop up in $50nl.

They get to the river and miss the flush draw or realise that they have nothing. The only way they see to make you fold is to push all-in. And they feel like a poker god when you fold. They feel like a twat when you make the call with TPTK.

and yes they do push with 2 pair here also, but they also shove with so many other hands that I call in these spots all day long.

Normski

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Is this hand planning okay against a maniac? (slightly long)

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