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BankItDrew
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04-04-2008, 09:22 PM
Post subject: Hacker tells me how he hacks PS
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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First of all, I'm the furthest thing from the 'techy computer' type... so I don't really know or remember how he does it.
Basically I went to a live cash game held at a nearby seniors centre, and I met this older gentleman who works for a software company (of which they are trying to sell patents to Nortel). Anyways, halfway through the session, he overhears me talking about Pokerstars and he pipes up about him and his co-workers are working on software that can hack the website.
A few interesting points:
1) He worked for the military at one point or another
2) He says he's trying to hack the software to help understand and prevent hacking in the future
3) This is a not for gambling profit project
4) He at one point pulls out his blackberry and it all of the information of a tournament that had just been played by one of his bots. It had all of the essential information you'd expect from a PS SNG congratulatory e-mail. The e-mail had the time on it and it said 2:47am on it, and he had been in that room playing live for the last 8 hours.
5) The bot only plays cheap microstakes games
6) They are working on bots that can see opponents cards but are having difficulty with face cards
7) Notable bots: Mr. T & Triple H (I'm not sure of correct spelling or look of either name)
8) This guy is legit
At the beginning of the conversation, it was very worry some. At the end, it was kind of reassuring. Only because he seemed very honest about this being an act of protection for the players.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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LoL, this is bullshit on so many levels.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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i'm more worried about my account being hacked than this. 
If possible, why not email pokerstars and ask for further investigations?
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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you make a great point....
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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Fnord
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04-04-2008, 09:35 PM
Post subject: Re: Hacker tells me how he hacks PS
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#5 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
1) He worked for the military at one point or another
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So what? Kinda reeks of bullshit though.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
2) He says he's trying to hack the software to help understand and prevent hacking in the future
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No, he's either in it for money or the challenge to see if he could pull it off. Standard bullshit answer he thinks will justify his joy riding to others. Or he's just full of shit.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
3) This is a not for gambling profit project
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See above.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
4) He at one point pulls out his blackberry and it all of the information of a tournament that had just been played by one of his bots. It had all of the essential information you'd expect from a PS SNG congratulatory e-mail. The e-mail had the time on it and it said 2:47am on it, and he had been in that room playing live for the last 8 hours.
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Either staged, someone else was on the account or he does have a bot screwing around at the micro-stakes.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
5) The bot only plays cheap microstakes games
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Because anything beyond the most mechanical of detection methods would probably pwn him.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
6) They are working on bots that can see opponents cards but are having difficulty with face cards
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LOL! How can you keep a straight face when he says this?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
7) Notable bots: Mr. T & Triple H (I'm not sure of correct spelling or look of either name)
8) This guy is legit
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See above.
He's FoS or he got a bot running at penny stakes. Whatever.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Don't take it too personally Fnord. I'm just passing on information I received.
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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think about how can they worry about recognising face cards. They either have data or they don't, and they can't be remotely viewing everyones pc with a fuzzy display. It makes no sense.
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,519
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I'm a software nerd for a living, and the 'having trouble with face cards' makes absolutely no sense.
The 'hack' would have to have a way to retrieve data about other player's hands from the server (unlikely to begin with), and if it could do that, it could do that for any card -- It's not like face cards are special in any other way than how they're physically printed, but in electronic form, the cards would be most likely represented as numbers, 10 = T, 11 = J , ...
I'd love to have a more detailed technical conversation with the ol' dude.
How was the night drew? Games soft enough to be worthwhile? I may join you some other week if you liked it enough to go back.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Softer than any casino you've every been to. 100max left with 600.
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,519
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PISS!
.5/1 games, eh?
I'm comin' next time you're goin' 
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
PISS!
.5/1 games, eh?
I'm comin' next time you're goin' |
no it's 1/2 100 max
no rake
$15 per person starting fee, pays for the hall, pizza, drinks, munchies
there were two tables last night
one or two decent players per table
it's located just down the street from the beer store on the south side of broadway
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
I'm a software nerd for a living, and the 'having trouble with face cards' makes absolutely no sense.
The 'hack' would have to have a way to retrieve data about other player's hands from the server (unlikely to begin with), and if it could do that, it could do that for any card -- It's not like face cards are special in any other way than how they're physically printed, but in electronic form, the cards would be most likely represented as numbers, 10 = T, 11 = J , ...
I'd love to have a more detailed technical conversation with the ol' dude.
How was the night drew? Games soft enough to be worthwhile? I may join you some other week if you liked it enough to go back.
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well, you're not getting into the server. I think a more realistic approach (although still far fetched) would be to access the video feed. If you somehow got a worm on their puter you could analyze the image and determine their hand.
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,519
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by swiggidy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
I'm a software nerd for a living, and the 'having trouble with face cards' makes absolutely no sense.
The 'hack' would have to have a way to retrieve data about other player's hands from the server (unlikely to begin with), and if it could do that, it could do that for any card -- It's not like face cards are special in any other way than how they're physically printed, but in electronic form, the cards would be most likely represented as numbers, 10 = T, 11 = J , ...
I'd love to have a more detailed technical conversation with the ol' dude.
How was the night drew? Games soft enough to be worthwhile? I may join you some other week if you liked it enough to go back.
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well, you're not getting into the server. I think a more realistic approach (although still far fetched) would be to access the video feed. If you somehow got a worm on their puter you could analyze the image and determine their hand. |
A worm on all your opponent's computers?
That'd have to be one hell of a versatile worm, AND you'd have to be able to easily get access to the IP of everyone at the table with you, which I highly doubt the server advertises. If it did, players could easily DDOS other players into not being able to play late tourney.
The trojan'd be most feasible if it came directly from the PS servers, but if you're on there, you could do anything so there'd be no point in going through all the trouble.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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It wouldn't be every computer obv. wouldn't it be trivial to have your worm search their puter for Stars, then report back? Then you would go track the person down and sit at their table and super user them.
Was just my thought, cuz like you said: having a hard time with face cards, doesn't really make sense.
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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MehFU
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 101
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mebbe hes tryin to back door the screen grab for the security part of the software that tries to detect bot action or processes. however ud expect this stuff to be locked down tighter than a pilgrims pocket. even so the "picture card" line sounds like rubbish its either data or its not theres no half way.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,519
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by swiggidy
It wouldn't be every computer obv. wouldn't it be trivial to have your worm search their puter for Stars, then report back? Then you would go track the person down and sit at their table and super user them.
Was just my thought, cuz like you said: having a hard time with face cards, doesn't really make sense.
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...I'm more inclined to assume that some dude in a small town poker hall is just fuckin' with drew 
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Hawk
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 367
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Another geek's opinion...full of shit. Like everyone else, I think it's the "hard time with face cards" line that really makes the story fail.
But don't feel bad. All bots are bad at detecting lies.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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lol bring on the bots to high stakes cash games.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
lol bring on the bots to high stakes cash games.
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You really really don't want this.
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Silly String
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04-09-2008, 09:16 PM
Post subject: Re: Hacker tells me how he hacks PS
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#20 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
1) He worked for the military at one point or another
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You are from Canada, amirite? lolz
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Pythonic
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In S-mart Swallowing Your Soul!
Posts: 586
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I'm sure PokerStars pays many top notch security companies big bucks to try and hack in all the time. Can you imagine how many millions of dollars they would lose if their site was hackable and it leaked out? They take preventative measures like they should and protect their assets.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pythonic
I'm sure PokerStars pays many top notch security companies big bucks to try and hack in all the time. |
I seriously doubt they spend millions to get others to break in. Already have lots of people who try for free.
I'm pretty sure they spend millions on research staff and security engineers.
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Soothsayer
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Posts: 10
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<------------- Senior Electrical Engineering student
As with most any large online system, my first thought is how could it be exploited. Not for my own personal gain, it's just an interesting hypothetical. So yeah....I've thought about it before.
Conclusion: It's not possible to hack PS so that you can see other people's cards. To put it in the easiest terms possible: Your computer doesn't know the other players cards until showdown.
It's not a matter of security where the cards are covered by a layer of encryption until showdown and then finally uncovered. They're literally not there. Each table has a server space and the players actions are stored in one database table while the cards are stored in another. Then upon showdown the cards are retrieved by a database retrieval command which is then sent to your computer. The only ways your cards are in jeopardy is if a fake retrieval command was made (utterly useless because it would only be allowed at showdown) or if the entire PS network as a whole is cracked. In which case i might rather extract about $100 million than you card faces. So rest easy, rounders.
I dunno. I thought someone might be interested as to why this is impossible. And i was excited to finally have a useful thing to say on this forum.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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^^^^thanks for the useful post lol
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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Seabass
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: trying not to die
Posts: 205
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It was a good post.
If anything you should be more worried that people will gain access to your computer then a mayor site.
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riverturnflop
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Thanks for the comical relieft
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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If it did, players could easily DDOS other players into not being able to play late tourney
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Although that is probably the easiest way to hack your way to profit its gunna be a little more noticable than a couple of extra good folds.
Final table and all but one player disconnects. Hmmmm
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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notgrant
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3
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I was thinking about this and the guy could be somewhat on the level. If he is writing his own bot from scratch, it could be he's having trouble with figuring out a way to positivley identify face cards accurately so that the bot knows what cards are SHOWING (either pocket or board). Existing bots of course have already figured this out, but if writing one from scratch, it could be an issue that comes up during the development/testing process. Also, I've heard that some poker clients are involved in the shuffle process, i.e. each client cuts/shuffles the deck before a card is dealt, to ensure randomization and inclusion of entropy from a source other than the central server(s). Could be he's looking into a way to leverage that somehow to stack the deck. Don't know how successful that will be though.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,519
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by notgrant
I was thinking about this and the guy could be somewhat on the level. If he is writing his own bot from scratch, it could be he's having trouble with figuring out a way to positivley identify face cards accurately so that the bot knows what cards are SHOWING (either pocket or board). Existing bots of course have already figured this out, but if writing one from scratch, it could be an issue that comes up during the development/testing process. Also, I've heard that some poker clients are involved in the shuffle process, i.e. each client cuts/shuffles the deck before a card is dealt, to ensure randomization and inclusion of entropy from a source other than the central server(s). Could be he's looking into a way to leverage that somehow to stack the deck. Don't know how successful that will be though.
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This is true, the guy could just have written a run of the mill bot to grind donkaments. Not an impossible task, though quite time-consuming to do it well.
That would add up with what he said about getting a tourney win email on his blackberry, though I can't quite imagine how his bot managed to win if it can't differentiate between face cards...
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
lol bring on the bots to high stakes cash games.
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You really really don't want this. |
Why not?
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