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Good shove? Or let them come to me??

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Vinland

03-19-2009, 01:12 PM Post subject: Good shove? Or let them come to me??

#1 (permalink)

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DeadMeat was conservative, DeadMeat2 was a limper. I called PF simply for set value. I was expecting DeadMeat to have a high PP or AK, DeadMeat2 was more loose and I felt that If I hit my set I could get one or two stacks here...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($2.95)
BB ($1.19)
Hero (UTG) ($3.47)
UTG+1 ($0.96)
MP1 ($1.78)
MP2 ($1.06)
MP3 ($5)
DeadMeat (CO) ($2.45)
DeadMeat2 (Button) ($5.95)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 3

, 3

Hero calls $0.02, UTG+1 calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02, 2 folds, DeadMeat bets $0.16, DeadMeat2 calls $0.16, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.14, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.55) 7

, 10

, 3

(3 players)
Hero checks, DeadMeat bets $0.52, DeadMeat2 calls $0.52, Hero raises to $3.31 (All-In)

The reason I shoved is that DeadMeat had $1.77 behind. If I min raised him (which I hate doing) he would only have about $.75 left so pushing to me made sense. I was pretty happy to get even one of them in.

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sil693

03-19-2009, 01:32 PM

#2 (permalink)

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fold preflop - UTG limping w small pps might work at the micros but its more than likely going to turn into a bad habit if you keep doing it.

apart from that, nice hand.

Vinland

03-19-2009, 01:40 PM

#3 (permalink)

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I don't do it often...usually depends on the table.

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Lucothefish

03-19-2009, 01:42 PM

#4 (permalink)

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This should have been a fold pre-flop. However, I would have min-rr'd on the flop to try to keep them both in the hand. Even with the FD on the board 2 donators is better than one.

BooG690

03-19-2009, 02:43 PM

#5 (permalink)

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I agree with sil693 here...but I always limp in with PP's UTG if I see the microdonks aren't really raising PF. This is usually the case so setmining becomes profitable...even what UTG. However, I have to remember to kick this habit once I reach 10NL.

That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.

Outlaw

03-19-2009, 03:32 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Limping 33s UTG is fine, just remember to do it with the top of your range sometimes too. (once you get to higher stakes)

sil693

03-19-2009, 03:42 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Limping 33s UTG is fine, just remember to do it with the top of your range sometimes too. (once you get to higher stakes)

it is not really fine imo.

vs competent players limp/calling in EP is such a see through line - one which we're almost never going to take with nut hands.

you refer to limping with the top of your range - limp/3bet seems to be an ever more popular line, but its a shitty way to try and get value from your nut hands as again, its just too obvious. also, we dont want to limp/call with nut hands as we'll likely end up seeing a multiway pot OOP.

so basically, if we limp/call our range is almost entirely small-mid pps, and if we get aggro postflop our hand is pretty easy to read. if we decide to limp with nut hands to "balance" then we're actually going to be limp/3betting - so our range isnt really balanced at all.

decent players wont fall for it. might as well not make a habit of it.

Vinland

03-19-2009, 03:57 PM

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sil693 wrote

Quote:

so basically, if we limp/call our range is almost entirely small-mid pps, and if we get aggro postflop our hand is pretty easy to read.

I can see that....and I'd tend to agree...
At the micro's though....they arent watching all that much....would you agree that it can be profitable at 2nl?

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surviva316

03-19-2009, 05:19 PM

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there's nothing wrong with raising small PPs from EP because you're likely to still be well within the range of the 1/15 rule. the thing with that move is that it makes how you play takes more attention because you have to react to reraises sometimes (if it's a tight player sometimes it's good to still call this even if it's 1/10 or even 1/8 because you're almost certain they have a nut hand) and it's tough to play a raised pot out of position with a hand that's unlikely to hit the flop. but if you have disciplined postflop play raising utg with small PPs is a good way to balance.
as for your original question, pushing was CLEARLY the right play because the flop is so draw oriented. and if your opponent is as tight as you say he is than the 8BB raise is unlikely to be 77 or 10-10 and he's probably calling with QQ+ so it's hard to question that this play is +EV in my eyes

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Micro2Macro

03-19-2009, 11:33 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Limping 33s UTG is fine, just remember to do it with the top of your range sometimes too. (once you get to higher stakes)

This is an example of a spot where we don't need to balance our open limping range. If we're at a table where limping small pairs UTG is okay, we won't need to be limping big pairs or AK/AQ etc because it will already be apparent that no ones paying enough attention to what you're limping.

If we're limping at a higher level, well we wouldn't likely be at a table where this would be a good play so the only balancing we'd be doing would be for open-raising (open-limping wouldn't be in our arsenal). For example, raise 22+, and AK/AQ, and like a 'package hand' or two, such as 98s or JTs that flops well and will be well hidden. This is a somewhat balanced open-raising range I think, because it will be hard for your opponents to put you on either AA or a suited connector. The downside to this wide of an opening range of course would be having to fold to 3-bets often, so perhaps ditching pairs up to 77 and then just adding in a hand like 98s will give pretty good balance. Anyone disagree with this? I'm just kind of shooting this off the top of my head.

I think once 10nl-25nl is reached you'll need to throw open limping utg out the window because more players will be aware of what your doing it with. I used to open limp small pairs UTG at 2nl and found it profitable, then when I got to 5nl and was a bit more aware of table conditions etc. I found alot of spots where it wasn't good. Now at 10nl I think I've maybe open limped UTG 2-3 times out of 20K hands. Basically it's been phased out of my game because the table conditions will be less likely to favour it as you increase in levels.

In summary, open-limping UTG is a pretty controversial topic. I do believe there is value in it when certain conditions are met, but these conditions are only likely at the lowest stake games. Like sil said, it's good not to get into the habit of doing it, because it will kill you in bigger games. I'm just randomly stating this so don't take it as concrete advice, but I think once you hit 25nl it will need to be ditched entirely, and when you're at 10nl, you should be making an effort to not do it as well.

Vinland: I think I answered your question somewhere in there. Hope this all helps.

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daven

03-19-2009, 11:56 PM

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the pre-flop limp-call debate can go on forever. It's margingal, but can be ok.

Flop is interesting. Check-shoving here after check-calling preflop is bad. If you were trying to make AA fold this is the line you would take. Even open-shoving flop is better than this. I like either lead flop or check-call flop, lead turn.

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

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