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AK_suited
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06-16-2009, 01:22 PM
Post subject: Getting call when you shove the flop by a strong draw
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#1 (permalink)
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Two Pair
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bronx Ny
Posts: 42
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I've been playing poker seriously for about a year (not a winning player yet but growing) recently I've been having success in the .10,.25nl and .50nl usually buying in for the min 20bb usually I can double or triple up fairly quickly. But I fall into this situation at times where I'm the preflop raiser and if I hit the board but its really draw heavy I might just shove against a player who I've witness shove semi/bluff with a draw. What makes its profitable for them to call my shove with Axs Kx etc on the flop. Risking 30bb+ on a 2:1 draw or worste with even money pot odds? Is there something I'm doing wrong? I'm open for critics
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You can't win pots if you fold.
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Lucothefish
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06-16-2009, 01:46 PM
Post subject: Re: Getting call when you shove the flop by a strong draw
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#2 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cretaceous Park
Posts: 701
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AK_suited
Is there something I'm doing wrong?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AK_suited
...usually buying in for the min 20bb...
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<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Buying in that short isn't necessarily a mistake, but at microstakes it makes it much, much harder to beat the rake, which could be contributing to OP's inability to become a strictly winning player.
As played, just because they do it doesn't mean it's profitable.
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tunah
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 44
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Also with 20BB, you can't shove very hard, often they'll still have odds.
Suppose you have 1 limper, you raise to 5bb, villain calls, and the rest fold. Now on the flop you're shoving 15bb into 12.5bb, not far off 2:1. If you're ever bluffing, or villain has other outs, or there's more dead money in the pot, they're right to call.
But you should be happy if they're calling without odds. If villain is drawing, there are 3 possibilities:
Villain draws cheaply - this makes you the least money
Villain folds - this makes you more money
Villain draws expensively - this makes you the most money
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AK_suited
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Two Pair
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bronx Ny
Posts: 42
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I don't shove with 20bb I know that I just laying at least 2:1 with that when I shove I'm usually at 40-60bb and they still manage to call me with a Ax Kx fush draw I would understand if they had combo outs 10+ but they don't. At 20bb I'm usually tight looking for steal and trying to double up I limp looking to catch big hands in pos. I don't start doing anything crazy until I have 1. Achieved my table image and 2. Gathered some scraps from the other players
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You can't win pots if you fold.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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As tunah pointed out.. If you are shoving 40-60bb and they are calling with flush draws, then you are profiting massively (if you actually have a made hand) because they aren't getting the proper odds to call.
However, it's unlikely that this is the ideal strategy because your hand is turns face up, and you are only playing against a portion of his range, and this isn't even the ideal play against that range (as usually most wouldn't call).
Also, just a fwiw, if they have high flush draws, this could be considered combo draws because the 3 aces/kings/queens could be outs, etc. So if they have the flush draw with like AQs on a 8hi board they could believe they have 15 outs (9 + 6).
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AK_suited
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Two Pair
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bronx Ny
Posts: 42
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So iyo what is the best approve to a situation like this
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You can't win pots if you fold.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Well... It depends.
I'd probably cbet a relatively standard amount and evaluate either on the turn or if he raises the flop. This standard cbet is likely to get called by a wider range of hands than merely shoving the flop. Therefore, when you have a strong hand you can get more value from it. And when you don't have that strong of a hand, you lose less when called. You would still be giving draws inappropriate odds in most cases.
Put up a hand history so we can assess what you are doing.
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AK_suited
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Two Pair
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bronx Ny
Posts: 42
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Yeah I use that too, typically I cbet very often maybe more than I should , reason being is people fold to preasure to often but after watching these opponents come over the top with an ai its makes the cbet worthless against them you would be just spewing, that's part of the reason I shove, but I see your point a 2/3 pot - pot size bet should be enough to get them to lay it down I even use the min bet as a action stopper because they percieve the "minbet" either as a sign of strength or stupidity a lot of people preach ddmr but I say use it with a purpose its a valuable tool, anyways ill post some of those hands later tonight when I get home from this 9_5
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You can't win pots if you fold.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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(1) If they are semibluff shoving over with their draws as you say they are, then you should be cbetting and more likely to call their shoves/raises.
(2) If they have a draw you aren't betting (2/3 - pot) in hopes of them laying it down. You want them to call. Just against the odds.
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