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Getting away from 2pr

  
 
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sarbox68
Old 08-17-2007, 08:01 PM     Post subject: Getting away from 2pr #1 (permalink)  
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UB $10NL. I know I f'd this hand up, and have tried to self-examine below. Please critique as I have a hard time getting away from hands above TPTK unless there's a really obvious draw on the board.

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05./$0.10.
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is BB with 5 K
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, Hero checks.
Obviously only going to check in the BB with this, assuming I'll be dumping immediately.

Flop: A K 5 ($0.4, 4 players)
SB bets $0.4, Hero raises to $0.8, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, SB calls.
Flopped two pair. See the potential 4flush & Stdraw. SB bets into me. Is a LAG, with pretty high PoF agg so I read this as a) trying to steal the pot since nobody showed agg PF and b) killing drawing odds. I like my two pair alot because a) they're pretty well disguised and b) odds are good somebody might at least have paired the A or K. Therefore, would like to keep the SB in and have pos to extract a few more dollars. So I min raise to kick MP out and keep SB in. Doesn't work. He calls as does SB.

Turn: T ($2.8, 3 players)
SB bets $2.80, Hero raises to $5.60, MP2 folds, SB goes all-in for $9.30, Hero calls all-in for $8.75.
Uncalled bets: $.55 returned to SB.
[b]Here's where the sh!t falls apart. A club drops so I figure I'm okay against a flush draw, but things just got stickier for Str8. SB bets into me again. I STILL like my two pair, figure my R on the Flop didn't send a strong enough message. I am worried about Str8 and maybe better two pair. Also a set. But I also figure I've got a 4 addt'l outs to improve. So I figure I'll test him with another R, but make it meatier. MP drops this time but SB pushes.

Goddamn middle/bottom two pair.... and the rest is history, I call (stoopid, stoopid, stoopid...)

River: 4 ($19.28, 0 player + 2 all-in)


Results:
Final pot: $19.28

In review, I think I should have done the following differently...

1) Raise more on the flop given the draws. Possibly $1.20-1.60
2) Made the same-sized raise (or slightly larger) on the turn, but folded when he pushed
 
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poker_pup
Old 08-17-2007, 11:25 PM #2 (permalink)  
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So what did he have?
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Unibomber14
Old 08-17-2007, 11:28 PM #3 (permalink)  
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You're right about the bigger raise on flop. A min raise here usually has signs of weakness. You also minraised on the turn. I think I push here. It adds fold equity, and puts the big decision on my opponent instead of on me.
"$80 million Submarine mansion. Think about it."
 
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Unibomber14
Old 08-17-2007, 11:31 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Doesn't matter what he had. You have to look at the way the hand is played, not the outcome.
"$80 million Submarine mansion. Think about it."
 
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taipan168
Old 08-18-2007, 12:53 AM #5 (permalink)  
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You definitely need to raise more on the flop. Bottom two pair is a strong but vulnerable hand - in addition to the draws, if opp has Ax then if the board pairs on the turn and river your bottom pair is counterfeited, or (obviously) if opp hits another A or his kicker on the turn you're dead. With $0.80 in the pot I put in about a bit more than a pot sized raise - make it $1.60 to go.

On the turn, I agree with Unibomber, push over. If opp has QJ then good luck to him - but if you'd raised more on the flop he would have made a mistake drawing to his gutshot.
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Chopper
Old 08-18-2007, 03:07 AM #6 (permalink)  
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i make the same mistake with 2 pair...taking it too far and losing my place in the hand.

so, in adjustment, i play it very hard on the flop. in a limped pot, you can likely throw out AK, but 55 is a possibility (not a large one because of the 5 on the flop and in your hand).

i raise the flop to 3.5 X his raise. if he calls, i'm pretty much done. i dont like the "i have 4 outs" thinking, as it doesnt come in often enough to justify your turn raise.

i know its likely to still be best, and none of us like a donkey pushing us around in a "blind battle." but, facts are facts. he's willing to keep coming around, and you are losing strength as the hand continues. try to buy it on the flop and stop...before you commit yourself in the process of still defining your hand.

just my .02. i overplay a lot, and underplay a lot. but, i think its better to underplay 2 pair that isnt TOP TWO.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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miracleriver
Old 08-18-2007, 03:53 AM     Post subject: Re: Getting away from 2pr #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarbox68
I am worried about Str8 and maybe better two pair. Also a set. But I also figure I've got a 4 addt'l outs to improve.
you'd only have 0 to 2 outs against better 2 pairs or set, not 4.
 
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Ash256
Old 08-18-2007, 04:49 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Ash256 will become famous soon enoughAsh256 will become famous soon enough
 Raise nice 'n' big on the flop. I like 1.40.

In terms of getting away from a hand in general, look at the hand from all the seperate villain's perspectives and work out what their range is. If their range beats yours, fold. It's excruciatingly difficult to fold a hand that you're emotionally attached to, but it needs to be done.. I still do it now, I had a KK hand tonight where even though the villain played the classic "call, minraise turn" line against me I still couldn't get away.
Listen to my music
 
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sarbox68
Old 08-18-2007, 11:30 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Great posts. Thanks a ton for the help!!
 
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