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AFchung

10-27-2008, 06:20 PM Post subject: Forgive Me, I slowplayed

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: UCLA

Posts: 1,179

The flop was so dry that I thought a raise would draw him away for sure. If he had QQ-AA he'd probably keep firing anyways, and if he had AK/AQ i wanted him to either catch a pair or try to bluff again. Is there any particular reason why I shouldn't have slowplayed the flop?

Should I have shoved the turn? Or was shoving any river still okay?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($4.95)
MP1 ($1.91)
MP2 ($4.73)
MP3 ($5.11)
CO ($2.84)
Button ($1)
SB ($4.88)
Hero (BB) ($2.04)
UTG ($2.94)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6

, 7

UTG calls $0.02, 3 folds, MP3 raises to $0.12, 2 folds, SB calls $0.11, Hero calls $0.10, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.38) 7

, 3

, 7

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets $0.35, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.35

Turn: ($1.08) 4

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $0.36, Hero calls $0.36

River: ($1.80) 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.21 (All-In), MP3 calls $1.21

Total pot: $4.22 | Rake: $0.20

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Sugar Nut

10-27-2008, 06:32 PM

#2 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2008

Location: grinderschool.com

Posts: 42

Fold preflop. It sucks playing draws OOP without much fold equity, which I assume you have very little of at 2NL.

For the very same reason (not much FE) slowplaying sucks. No one ever folds anything. Bet and raise and get the money in with your monsters. More often than not their gonna pay off with some weirdo junk you won't believe.

Sugar Nut

Robb

10-27-2008, 08:11 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,072

Robb is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sugar Nut

Fold preflop. It sucks playing draws OOP without much fold equity, which I assume you have very little of at 2NL.

I disagree. I fold pre for another reason: sc odds (like set odds for small pp's). The raise is too big. Check out this thread: Playing pp's.

At the end, thread hits implied odds for sc's, and JefferyGB weighs in with more great content. In general, sc's seem to need 25x or 30x effective stacks to make them profitable, bigger than sets because the third flush card on the board really kills the action.

However, as played, the flop slow play is fine if you have a read on the villain(s) that they'll bet. The board isn't very drawy. On a dry board with a villain almost certain to fire in bets when checked to, ONE slow play is fine. With two pair, I would lead the turn after check/calling the flop.

Two is pair is a very fragile hand, yet very good on the flop. You wanna bet it hard and fast early to get the chips in while you're ahead. There's lots of ways to lose on the turn/river with 2 pair, and you'll be ready to hurl if you slowplay your way into stacking off.

Just make sure you have big enough effective stacks & and a villain willing to stack off with top pair before you play this one preflop.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

Warpe

10-27-2008, 08:31 PM

#4 (permalink)

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two pair?

martindcx1e

10-27-2008, 08:42 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,614

don't make a habit out of calling 6bb pfr's with sc's. it's burning money.

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

Stacks

10-27-2008, 08:45 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sugar Nut

Fold preflop. It sucks playing draws OOP without much fold equity, which I assume you have very little of at 2NL.

I disagree. I fold pre for another reason: sc odds (like set odds for small pp's). The raise is too big.

Both are valid reasons actually. Not enough implied odds, and it's harder to extract when oop.

As played preflop, I think the rest of the hand is fine. Villain has at most two outs. So the flop check is fine, and given the stack sizes, there isn't any real need to c/r the turn to get more money in, as you already have only a 2/3 PSB left on the river after his lead. Just call, and hope he feels comfortable enough on the river to pay you.

Other than preflop, well played.

Sugar Nut

10-27-2008, 08:53 PM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2008

Location: grinderschool.com

Posts: 42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sugar Nut

Fold preflop. It sucks playing draws OOP without much fold equity, which I assume you have very little of at 2NL.

I disagree. I fold pre for another reason: sc odds (like set odds for small pp's). The raise is too big. Check out this thread: Playing pp's.

Didn't read the thread but I'm sure it will state that with a set you don't really care about position since you have a lock hand a large % of the time (still I would take IP over OOP obv). with sc's you don't get the kinda "instant feedback" to your hand as with a small pp. More often than not if you flop anything it will be a draw.

Playing draws aggressively can be highly profitable, however our profit doesn't come from villain calling and us hitting our draw but from villain folding enough of the time.

When IP we have the chance to take free cards which can help when FE is low. We don't have that option OOP.

At the end, thread hits implied odds for sc's, and JefferyGB weighs in with more great content. In general, sc's seem to need 25x or 30x effective stacks to make them profitable, bigger than sets because the third flush card on the board really kills the action.

However, as played, the flop slow play is fine if you have a read on the villain(s) that they'll bet. The board isn't very drawy. On a dry board with a villain almost certain to fire in bets when checked to, ONE slow play is fine. With two pair, I would lead the turn after check/calling the flop.

As I stated above people will pay you off.

If I have a read that villain will cbet a high % of the time I'm c/r'ing 100%. If he rather checks back a lot I'll donk.

Two is pair is a very fragile hand, yet very good on the flop. You wanna bet it hard and fast early to get the chips in while you're ahead. There's lots of ways to lose on the turn/river with 2 pair, and you'll be ready to hurl if you slowplay your way into stacking off.

Just make sure you have big enough effective stacks & and a villain willing to stack off with top pair before you play this one preflop.

Again: Also make sure to be IP.

Robb

10-27-2008, 11:44 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Sugar nut, maybe I should have said "it's fine to play sc's oop against the right villain, with big enough effective stacks." Position is vital.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

raidbett

10-28-2008, 06:40 AM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2008

Posts: 6

2 pairs or pocket of 8s?

bikes

10-28-2008, 07:38 AM

#10 (permalink)

a hot damn mess
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Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 2,448

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

Sugar nut, maybe I should have said "it's fine to play sc's oop against the right villain, with big enough effective stacks." Position is vital.

No. Just No.

You need position to play SC's effectively.

Robb

10-28-2008, 07:56 AM

#11 (permalink)

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K. Bbickes knows.

I haven't found 10nl villains to be very good at using position, so sc's have been okay for me cheap oop. But Bbickes pwns much higher levels than me, so I plan to keep this in mind.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

bikes

10-28-2008, 08:04 AM

#12 (permalink)

a hot damn mess
Administrator

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 2,448

K. I was busy and couldnt post alot and am still busy.

Obv I hate linking away from FTR but http://www.grinderschool.com/articles.php?article=1.1

is a great article on SC's on their value and why position is crucial in playing SC's

I damage threads that may actually benefit some posters

kb coolman

10-30-2008, 02:34 AM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2008

Posts: 596

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bbickes

Great article. And it states that they play well in cheap multi-way pots. The pre-flop action on this table does not qualify. Calling PF here is -EV.

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