Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

4bet folding QQ is typically a bad play.

Originally Posted by Pelion

@ Micro2Macro: Having a spot where we fold QQ but raise 72o preflop just doesnt make sense.

Originally Posted by surviva316

footnote: this is true because it is very very rare that people have a "flatting a four bet range." essentially the only time you wanna {any kind of raise}/fold for value is either because there is enough reasonable fear that someone is going to suck out on you that protecting your hand outweighs value (irrelavent preflop) or because HE HAS SOME KIND OF FLATTING RANGE THAT WE BEAT. and people who flat 4b's at 25nl 6m is like "woah, he just flatted my 4b, wtf does that?" so mainly people only continue to 4b's by stacking off preflop with a 5b, so if that stacking off range is one you can't call off to, then you have manipulated his range so that a range that you once crushed, now crushes you.

3b/folding QQ, however, is a scenario that isn't uncommon at all because people call 3b's all the time. fish do it to the point where you're missing out on immense amount of value by not 3b'ing them with like AJ+, TT+ IP because most 60/20 LAgg fish think that KJ and AT are the nuts preflop and won't fold them to what seems like a mild amount of aggression.

as for your question about the nit in the bvb spot. i believe you said that you play 25nl, which is the first limit where i think that it's fairly common that people are 3b'ing light. so if, even over a small sample, the nitty villain appears to be stealing blinds with any kind of frequency, then we should be 3b'ing here so often as a bluff because they're going to be opening wider than they feel comfortable with and they're not going to want to continue with much of it OOP. so, if you're able to build up a bit of a rapport of 3b'ing like anything suited and any Ax, then you almost SHOULD 3b QQ from a theoretical standpoint (to balance your bluffing range just a bit) because someone who just looks like a nit over a small sample still may have the propensity to start playing back at you. i would pretty much need to have like a 70-100 hand sample on someone being like a 14/10 for me to not want to auto 3b/get it in in this spot though.

if you decide to flat QQ IP, i wouldn't suggest making raising a cbet on any non Axx or Kxx board your "standard" play especially against a nit. in bvb, against a reg, you prolly can because you're gonna look so FoS because it's bvb and everybody's always FoS, so you WILL get called alot by KJ on a J-high board. but other than that, your opponent usually needs to be a fish to continue with TPTK to raise on a dry board, so raising a T-high board IP isn't usually going to be preferable to calling because you're getting value for like JJ (which will often consider a fold too, especially if it's a nit)

so if you're flatting PF, usually you're making a decision that means it's going to take multiple streets to stack your opponent, unless the flop comes like AQx or you flop overpair+OESD or flop is a wet 7-high board or something like that. soooooo, don't make anything you're standard play because i just included a lot of exceptions (fishy opponent, bvb, a flop where you look FoS if you raise and that allows for a lot of lesser overpairs, etc), but don't get caught in the thought process of "well i have to either raise PF or raise on the flop" it's still all about ranges and so forth[/b]

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Cliff notes: If you're not willing to stack off you probably shouldn't 3-bet unless Villain has a huge calling range against your 3-bet or you're trying to isolate a fish or something along those lines.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

In a situation where villains range is wide enough to bluff, choosing QQ to 4bet/fold is worse than choosing 72o because of the reasons stated in my post (spoonitnow sums it up nicely).

Originally Posted by Donkafelts

Great analysis in this thread btw.

@M2M your example was fine, easy to understand, and eye opening. FWIW no one said it, but if villian's range is super super narrow then 72 is also better because QQ is blocking his QQ and AQ hands making it more likely that he has a hand he is stacking off with.