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MRWN8R
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09-09-2008, 12:02 AM
Post subject: FOLDING KK PREFLOP
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 10
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I'm sure this has been discussed in some detail in previous threads, but I'm new here and would like to get some opinions and advice here.
I'm finding myself getting busted on all-in situations with KK preflop.
I'm pretty good about multi-way craziness before the flop and getting away from them if I truly feel I'm up against AA. What I'm having difficulty with are the heads up situations where I end up going against AX and he spikes his Ace or something else gross. I also understand that this happens and it's just part of poker. My question is this?
Does it ever make sense to fold KK preflop if it's a large portion or all of your stack even though you're confident that you have the best of it and your opponent likely needs to spike his Ace or maybe flop a set?
If I could be 100% sure that he had a smaller pair then no worries, I'm calling every time. It's the situations where he is looking to catch an Ace that concern me more.
When is folding the right play if ever?
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aka_red
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: house
Posts: 903
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not for 100bb or less.
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[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face
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bikes
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a hot damn mess
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,448
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I'm never folding KK for 100bb or esp never in the micros.
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I damage threads that may actually benefit some posters
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MRWN8R
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 10
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Ok, so you never fold them. Fine. Are you always raising with them? I'd say I do 99% of the time if I'm original raiser, and probably reraise 75% of the time.
I am a decent post flop player, and can usually fish out when I'm beat, so I'm comfortable limping and folding if I have to, but I subscribe to the theory of betting your quality hands when you get them more often than not.
I have probably only laid down KK successfully once or twice that I can think of and it was never heads up. I currently subscribe to the same belief... I'm never folding KK preflop. My doubt has been in seeing them get outflopped for more than half my stack or all of it on many recent occasions when it's all or nothing preflop.
Also, why did you use 100bb as a measuring stick?
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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I don't know what the deal is with the 100bb either. Is there a situation for 200bb where you would lay it down?
I never folded it preflop. I always raise, I always reraise it.
The only reason I would ever flat call is if I was up against an opponent who gave up very easily to preflop aggression but calls down lightly when he hits any part of the flop. That's very rare.
Some people seem to think they're smart to fold everything but QQ+ to a 3-bet. Against these witty individuals I would 3-bet any-2 as long as nobody else is in the hand, and flat-call KK preflop.
But you really need a solid read to not raise.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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OP, download pokerstove
Type A2s+ for player one and KK for player 2, hit evaluate.
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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givememyleg
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09-09-2008, 01:19 AM
Post subject: Re: FOLDING KK PREFLOP
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#7 (permalink)
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 5,040
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MRWN8R
I'm sure this has been discussed in some detail in previous threads, but I'm new here and would like to get some opinions and advice here.
I'm finding myself getting busted on all-in situations with KK preflop.
I'm pretty good about multi-way craziness before the flop and getting away from them if I truly feel I'm up against AA. What I'm having difficulty with are the heads up situations where I end up going against AX and he spikes his Ace or something else gross. I also understand that this happens and it's just part of poker. My question is this?
Does it ever make sense to fold KK preflop if it's a large portion or all of your stack even though you're confident that you have the best of it and your opponent likely needs to spike his Ace or maybe flop a set?
If I could be 100% sure that he had a smaller pair then no worries, I'm calling every time. It's the situations where he is looking to catch an Ace that concern me more.
When is folding the right play if ever?
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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my opponent can show me one card and it could be an A, I will still ship it everytime.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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1) If you'll only ever go AI PF w/ AA, assuming you 3-bet wider, guess how wide my PF push range is going to be against you?
2) I would only ever consider limping KK in EP if I was 99% sure some aggro is guaranteed to raise in position... and that's only so I can 3-bet his ass. Limping for limp sake is a great way to get stacked, usually followed by some comment like "DAM FISH! U SUK OUT WITH 59 U SUK" on a Q59xx board (not implying you'd do that...)
3) You only have top pair with 2 outs to improve. That's 2nd nuts preflop, and then goes down in value fast through subsequent streets depending on board texture. You want money in fast, and pref vills out fast before they get a chance to draw out on you. Raise, re-raise and make them pay to play or force you to reevalute.
4) Ideal SPR with a top overpair runs from 4 for tight players to 7 for looser. With AA-KK my opening plan is getting all the money in the middle heads-up. So I want to raise to build a pot that'll let me do that -- pref with 2/3psb type bets that are much more likely to get called by AQ or QJ on Q492x boards than 2x PSBs 'cause I didn't build my pot from the gate.
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by swiggidy
OP, download pokerstove
Type A2s+ for player one and KK for player 2, hit evaluate.
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^^^^^^^THIS.
dont be results oriented...
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poker_pup
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 130
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The only time I'd ever fold KK preflop would be if I had an indication of some sort that my opponent had AA. I usually use their betting pattern in the current hand versus their previous betting patterns.
For example, if they've been betting pretty tame and all of a sudden it's super aggressive raising preflop, I'd suspect they have pocket Aces. The big problem here is that when I have KK and I suspect they have pocket Aces, I still call because I REALLY want to know if I'm right.
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Kamawoop
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 81
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Should you fold KK preflop? The answer is almost never.
I then realised that this was a $25 or under discussion.
That makes KK a call 100% in my opinion. Different levels require different stratagies.
You’re often ahead, that’s a good thing.
You’ll frequently lose, that’s not a good thing.
Calling is massively profitable, atleast for six handed, or less.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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i wonder how many of these threads have been made over the years solely on whether to fold KK preflop?
over/under at 28.5
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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i'm never folding. if they keep raising it, i'm happy to get it all in. if they're lucky enough to have AA while i'm holding KK, then nh
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Kamawoop
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 81
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If you get outflopped don't worry; it was the correct play anyhow.
If you're afraid that your opponent will outdraw you by pairing an ace, then you're playing too high a limit.
If you genuinelly believe your opponent has AA fold; but if you genuinelly believe that then the likely reason is due to being afraid that they'll outdraw you anyhow.
The simple answer is call.
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MRWN8R
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 10
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To all above responders.
I subscribe to all of your practices of playing KK. Always have. I almost NEVER fold. As mentioned, I can only think of maybe twice where it was the correct play.
I was pretty sure I had the right answer already, but just needed some reinforcement to make sure I wasn't missing some small detail.
PS. I don't have Poker Stove but I am familiar with the math and odds, hence I always ship gladly with KK.
JYMS!
I follow you. 100%. That's my methodology exactly.
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MRWN8R
To all above responders.
I subscribe to all of your practices of playing KK. Always have. I almost NEVER fold. As mentioned, I can only think of maybe twice where it was the correct play.
I was pretty sure I had the right answer already, but just needed some reinforcement to make sure I wasn't missing some small detail.
PS. I don't have Poker Stove but I am familiar with the math and odds, hence I always ship gladly with KK.
JYMS!
I follow you. 100%. That's my methodology exactly.
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Pokerstove is free. Go download it. Doesnt matter how good you are with math, you are not capable of calculating your equity against a given range.
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Kamawoop
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 81
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I don't get it sett.
MRW was advocating calling, clearly the only play; so why does he have to examine pokerstove?
--
I do have pokerstove; I'm also familiar with the maths and the odds (I play poker for a living). I have never used pokerstove whilst making a decision "in real time" and would never give the slightest consideration to it with regards to hands such as AK/AA/KK.
QQ/JJ are much tricker.
AQ is very tricky.
AJ is approaching junk, even 6 handed.
I'm loosy goosy, 86s is the nuts.
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kamawoop
I don't get it sett.
MRW was advocating calling, clearly the only play; so why does he have to examine pokerstove?
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Because he implied he was afraid of calling against an A2+ range.
He should be downloading pokerstove anyway for doing some analysis of his game, or whatever...
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Kamawoop
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 81
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Yes.
It's a fundamental of cash game poker that if you have even just a 50.001% chance (excluding rake), then you should be prepared to commit everything to it and have the bankroll to take it if you lose.
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wellrounded08
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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I don't understand the length of this thread...
+EV
-Getting KK in preflop
-Getting Pokerstove. WHOEVER you are.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I like KK. Its very purty hand.
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Just playing to improve.
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The_OG_Rocco
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I would 'almost never' fold pocket Kings pre-flop in most situations. However, if the person that went all in pre-flop was known as a super tight and solid as a rock player with a large enough chip stack that could seriously hurt me, then I would have to pause and seriously consider my action/s before deciding to commit or not commit my chips.
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by oskar
I don't know what the deal is with the 100bb either. Is there a situation for 200bb where you would lay it down?
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yes.
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WillburForce
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW London
Posts: 516
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maybe one of these not folding KK pre threads should be a sticky or in the Beginners Digest (apologies if it is already).???
This comes round about once a month.
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kingnat
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 827
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utg+1 9/6 guy raises, me in MP with KK reraises, 10/8 guy on my immediate left shoves, utg+1 insta-calls...
kingnat folds kk. i think this is an acceptable fold of kk 100bb deep, that's about it though.
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So you click their picture and then you get their money?
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kingnat
utg+1 9/6 guy raises, me in MP with KK reraises, 10/8 guy on my immediate left shoves, utg+1 insta-calls...
kingnat folds kk. i think this is an acceptable fold of kk 100bb deep, that's about it though.
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yeah, theres def. more of an application in FR than 6max
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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kingnat
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 827
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
Quote:
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Originally Posted by kingnat
utg+1 9/6 guy raises, me in MP with KK reraises, 10/8 guy on my immediate left shoves, utg+1 insta-calls...
kingnat folds kk. i think this is an acceptable fold of kk 100bb deep, that's about it though.
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yeah, theres def. more of an application in FR than 6max |
qft... above hand was FR.
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So you click their picture and then you get their money?
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kingnat
utg+1 9/6 guy raises, me in MP with KK reraises, 10/8 guy on my immediate left shoves, utg+1 insta-calls...
kingnat folds kk. i think this is an acceptable fold of kk 100bb deep, that's about it though.
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I call 
Which part of the stats is the blowup factor?
No seriously, there is NO WAY I'm folding here.
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Very true.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by WillburForce
maybe one of these not folding KK pre threads should be a sticky or in the Beginners Digest (apologies if it is already).???
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I'm not sure the OP's who start these threads have even heard of the Beginner's Digest, much less considered reading it.
Maybe once a month, Will, you should start a thread saying "read the Beginner's Digest or stfu!!"
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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there are so many difficult decisions in poker that you need to eliminate the stupid bullshit like folding KK preflop from your head
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MRWN8R
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 10
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'Preciate the reco on Beginner's Digest. While I haven't read it cover to cover yet, I have read much of that and much else that has been written in this forum and others.
I apologize if I've clogged up your postings with a lesser subject. I does seem to be quite the popular thread though.
As I've iterated and reiterated already, I agree with all of you in regards to shipping it with KK preflop. I was simply trying to find out that if there was a rare instance where folding KK preflop would be a smart play other than the slim possibility where you're enlightened enough to KNOW he has AA.
I pretty much got what I figured I'd get... never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever...
Fold KK preflop.
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donkbee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: so close but so far
Posts: 3,604
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/thread? :P
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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WillburForce
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW London
Posts: 516
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by "Robb
Maybe once a month, Will, you should start a thread saying "read the Beginner's Digest or stfu!!"
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you asked for it....
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jolub
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 80
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I never fold pocket kings and mostly go all-in with them. They seem to win more than half the time. The last time I played them another player went all-in on me with pocket aces.
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