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Folding KK before the flop ??

  
 
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wolfofruby
Old 05-09-2005, 08:20 AM     Post subject: Folding KK before the flop ?? #1 (permalink)  

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i'm under the gun in a $100 NL holdem (0.5 /1 blinds). Me and the button have $100 each

I limp with KK
everybody fold to the button (rather tight guy) who raise 3 BB : $3
I'm happy and make it $10 to go (raise him $7)
He reraise me $20 ($30 to go)

At this moment, i said to myself, he must have AA. This guy seems Solid.
Should i fold my KK.... No way !!! i put him all in

He shows AA and beat me. I lost $100.

Have you ever fold KK before the flop ?
What can you do if a tight guy make a huge reraise ? Most of the books that i've red advice to go all in anyway. But this situation arise at least 2 times à month (roughly approximation of my part). so maybe there's a more caution way to play this.
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poskid_1982
Old 05-09-2005, 08:45 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Dont ever lay it down...You speak of blasphemy...I should smite you. HA

I have never layed it down preflop...nor will I ever.
Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
 
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wolfofruby
Old 05-09-2005, 09:36 AM #3 (permalink)  

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wolfofruby
ok ok,
i never lay it down preflop. but i was wondering.....
TJ cloutier said that he had flod several times with KK preflop i think.
Should i go all-in anyway ??
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poskid_1982
Old 05-09-2005, 09:38 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Ring game...No question Allin every time...Tourney is where it gets a little trickier. Use your reads. You dont want to go out on a 15% chance to win.
Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
 
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vqc
Old 05-09-2005, 10:24 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Why did you limp with it in the first place?
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journey075
Old 05-09-2005, 12:09 PM #6 (permalink)  
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he said he was UTG and from his play it looked like he was going for an EP check-raise...which usually indicates either KK or AA.

im having doubts about all-ins with K's. if youre playing against solid players, wouldnt the only person who would call an all-in be the guy with aces? i know if i had to, i certainly would fold QQ or worse preflop to an all-in from a solid player.

it just reminds me of the 'the only hands that will call you have you beat' philosophy. at fishier tables, however, im sure you'll see it called by a variety of things.

since most people here play with poor players for the most part, what im saying doesnt really matter.
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drmcboy
Old 05-09-2005, 01:06 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 Doyle's quote in SS I think is something like "Ask yourself, would I re raise here with QQ or less, if the answer is no you might lay them down".

I disagree with the above, I'm way more likely to fold this in a cash game than in a tourney. Tourney many hands less than AA make this play, here you have to think AA.

Tough lay down. I think the numbers are 1 in 20 times when you have KK someone will have AA, but don't quote me. Considering that it may be plus EV to never lay down KK... but again it's tough to figure out what other hand he could play like this. If you had raised coming in it would be one thing, but limp re raise screams I HAVE A BIG PAIR.
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Rondavu
Old 05-09-2005, 02:40 PM #8 (permalink)  
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You have to trust your reads. The guy is tight you said yourself. You made it $10 to go which is huge at this table. Once he reraised you, to me it's an easy laydown. The reason for this is a tight player would not reraise to $30 with QQ or JJ fearing KK or AA, and you have KK so the odds are he doesn't have the same. The only hand in a tight players arsenal that makes him do what he did is AA. IT WAS OBVIOUS HE HAD IT.

You basically ignored your instinct, and allowed your dog monster hand to own you. Forget the math and probability bullcrap. KK is ahead most of these times bla bla BLA. It's Hogwash. All that matters is if your sure he has a better hand then you fold it. If you want to be a good no limit player, you have to trust your reads and be willing to lay down the best hand.

Consider it a blessing when someone is so kind as to let you know how strong their hand is before the flop. He could have acted weak and hesitantly called your $10 to go. That's what I would have done if I was already guaranteed a heads up with you. Instead he broadcasted his hand, and you still fell into it. I'm afraid it was a huge mistake not laying your KK down. You knew in your heart it was beat.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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pantherhound
Old 05-09-2005, 04:07 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 i agree with rondavu. The guy is showing unprecedented strength for a tight player. Would he re-reraise like that with anything less than the nuts? would he fig. it's kings, but it's beatable, and it's beatable with what the tight guy across the table is holding. After his re-reraise you have all the information you need to fold, having lost just $13.
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Bmxicle
Old 05-09-2005, 07:22 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Its 1 in 25 times that in a full ring game you will have KK and someone will have AA. I trust my reads, but i don't trust my reads enough pre-flop (with little information) to say that, even a supposed tight player (who could have been running cold for all i know) wouldn't come over the top of me with something like QQ or AK 1/25 times.

You could just call, and if an ace or a queen or something nasty shows up i could see a fold on the flop but at 100nl i just don't lay this down.
 
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Greedo017
Old 05-09-2005, 07:56 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 anyone have any saved hand examples of getting reraised similar to this by a reasonably tight player with a reasonably deep stack, where they didn't have aces?
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Theeggman
Old 05-09-2005, 07:57 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I have made a pact with myself that I will never lay down KK pf. And on those rare occasions that I do run into AA I'll just chalk it up to the law of averages (or suck out). Buuuut, I do agree with rondavu that in this scenario you can make a strong argument for laying them down and cutting your losses to just $13. Given your limp (hoping for a raise) and all the action afterward against a tight opponent, I think that the conditions made it a perfect opportunity to make a good laydown. Problem is: if he didn't show you the Aces after you folded (if you had folded), this post would be a speculation post asking opinions on his holdings with no concrete answers. A no win situation IMO. Tough luck.
I'll be a rootin' tootin' shootin' damn fool, protectin' my chips.
 
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ChezJ
Old 05-09-2005, 08:41 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by journey075
im having doubts about all-ins with K's. if youre playing against solid players, wouldnt the only person who would call an all-in be the guy with aces? i know if i had to, i certainly would fold QQ or worse preflop to an all-in from a solid player.
first of all, if you re-raise all-in with KK against a huge raise, and it is true that the only hand that calls you is AA, then MOST of the time, you are going to steal a rather large pot, so this is +EV.

however, it is clearly not true that only aces will call you... at least not at the $25 NL tables. just yesterday i re-raised all-in with KK and some guy called with AKo. needless to say, he did not hit his 3-outer. the other day i re-raised all-in with AA and got called by QQ. he missed his 2-outer while i filled up a boat.

lay down KK preflop? never!

ChezJ
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ChezJ
Old 05-09-2005, 10:23 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 Example of being called AI with less than aces:

Hand #49133543 at table: Table TH274
Started: Mon May 09 18:18:08 2005 <-- just minutes ago

sonni is at seat 1 with $9.50
humbug is at seat 3 with $59.10
#HARLOFF# is at seat 4 with $15.75
jonah73 is at seat 5 with $16.23
solarburn is at seat 6 with $17.25
ChezJ is at seat 7 with $68.35
BIGD69 is at seat 8 with $21.85
foci is at seat 9 with $39.48
ramuba is at seat 10 with $20.00

BIGD69 posts the large blind $0.50
jonah73 posts the small blind $0.25
ChezJ posts the small blind $0.25

ChezJ: As, Ad

Pre-flop:

sonni: Check
humbug: Fold
#HARLOFF#: Raise $2.50
solarburn: Call $2.50
ChezJ: All-in
BIGD69: Fold
sonni: Fold
#HARLOFF#: All-in
solarburn: Fold

Flop (Board: 6c, 10c, 6h):
Turn (Board: 6c, 10c, 6h, 4s):
River (Board: 6c, 10c, 6h, 4s, 3d):

Showdown:

#HARLOFF# shows: Qh, Qc (two pair, Queens and Sixes)
ChezJ shows: As, Ad (two pair, Aces and Sixes)

Mainpot:
ChezJ wins the pot of $33.25 with two pair, Aces and Sixes

($1.75 rake were taken for this hand)
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dsaxton
Old 05-09-2005, 10:34 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Why did you raise over ten times the size of the pot?
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dalai007
Old 05-09-2005, 11:02 PM #16 (permalink)  

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Last night I re raised all in with kk and got called not by one but two people. Flop and turn are all unders no coodination. Start to get that happy feeling that I will be the proud winner of a 60$ pot. River is a big ol ugly A. Get that sudden sinking feeling and yup. One guy had AK and the other........... A10 . Yeaaaaah they both hit there two outer. Oh well back to the draing boad.
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ChezJ
Old 05-09-2005, 11:35 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Why did you raise over ten times the size of the pot?
because i had the best hand and i would have been happy to steal the $6.25 already in the pot. and because i knew there was a chance of getting called and taking a guy's whole stack, which i did. if i raised less than all-in, i might have had 2 callers, and with that scary flop i might have gotten either bluffed out or beaten by the 3rd guy. see the thread on AA strategy for a good discussion on this.

ChezJ
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wolfofruby
Old 05-10-2005, 10:23 AM #18 (permalink)  

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wolfofruby
thanks for all your answer,
There are all very interesting. I still didn't had fold KK before the flop but i 'm still wondering : can i trust my read (specally online...) ??

Today, i had the same situation. But there was no limp reraise since The player with AA was to act before me. I went all-in and think : man, i'm sure he has AA.

end of the story : he shows AA, but i beat him with a lucky flush !!

I'm thinking i might fold my KK in the " limp reraise " case if it happen to me with another tight guy.
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bunthorne
Old 05-18-2005, 11:03 AM     Post subject: Re: Folding KK before the flop ?? #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfofruby
i'm under the gun in a $100 NL holdem (0.5 /1 blinds). Me and the button have $100 each

I limp with KK
everybody fold to the button (rather tight guy) who raise 3 BB : $3
I'm happy and make it $10 to go (raise him $7)
He reraise me $20 ($30 to go)

At this moment, i said to myself, he must have AA. This guy seems Solid.
Should i fold my KK.... No way !!! i put him all in

He shows AA and beat me. I lost $100.

Have you ever fold KK before the flop ?
What can you do if a tight guy make a huge reraise ? Most of the books that i've red advice to go all in anyway. But this situation arise at least 2 times à month (roughly approximation of my part). so maybe there's a more caution way to play this.
looking at the previous posts, I have to agree with most of them. It does come down to what do you think your opponent has, considering things such as the type of game, position, stack sizes, stage of game, opponent's style, the standard of play etc.

If you think he's got AA, lay the KK down and move on to the next hand. If you think he hasn't, get your chips in!

There is no disgrace to losing with KK when your opponent outdraws you and there is a lot to be said for the approach that, if your KK gets cracked, then so be it! But if you think he's probably got the bullets, muck those cowboys!

I find that the higher the standard of players, the less likely they are to go all-in with anything less than AA, KK or AK early in the game. Of course it is different in the later stages. Conversely, the more fishy the player is, the more likely he is to go all-in with a weaker hand, such as QQ, JJ, AQ, AJ or KQs - hands which are asking for trouble!
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Cocco_Bill
Old 05-18-2005, 11:28 AM #20 (permalink)  
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QQ has been a far more profitable hand for me than KK. I am beginning to think part of the reason is that I am able to lay it down pre flop.
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