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Folded AA on K high flop

  
 
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fisherman
Old 08-18-2007, 11:44 PM     Post subject: Folded AA on K high flop #1 (permalink)  

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The other guy played very tight. From 225 hands he was 11/2.7/1.3 post-flop aggression

EverestPoker Game #1955811908: Table Berlin-8 - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:49:30 - 2007/08/18
Seat 1: ploert ($42.75)
Seat 2: Morph444 ($54.70)
Seat 3: kapitza ($62.05)
Seat 4: querreque ($27.83)
Seat 5: HERO ($47.75)
Seat 6: Menghini ($45.87)
Seat 7: boon99 ($19.30)
Seat 8: XMarsX ($45.00)
Seat 9: Poker_Lolo ($11.75)
Seat 10: amartne ($48.50)
boon99 posts the small blind of $0.25
XMarsX posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO[As Ad]
Poker_Lolo folds
amartne folds
ploert raises to $1.25
Morph444 folds
kapitza folds
querreque calls $1.25
HERO raises to $4.00
Menghini calls $4.00
boon99 folds
XMarsX folds
ploert calls $2.75
querreque folds
*** FLOP *** [Kc 7s 4d]
ploert checks
HERO checks
Menghini bets $3.00
ploert folds
Ibanezrg calls $3.00
*** TURN *** [Kc 7s 4d] [4h]
HERO checks
Menghini bets $8.00
HERO folds
Uncalled bet of $8.00 returned to Menghini
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Menghini mucks
*** SUMMARY ***
Board: [Kc 7s 4d 4h ]
Menghini collects $19.00

Him calling my raise made me very suspicious from the off. That's an 8xbb raise and immediately I put him on a range of QQ/KK, perhaps AK or JJ. Aside from the other AA being very unlikely he would have re-raised me. However, you could say he would have re-raised with KK.

Given this I checked the flop when I saw the king. The small bet made me suspicious and I often see this kind of bet being used when a player has the nuts at the time and wants to keep other players in the pot knowintg they have little chance of being out-drawn. I figured if he had AK he would have made a bigger bet and QQ or JJ he would have checked given his low AF. What do you think of my lay-down? I can see how many people would think I should push on the chance he has QQ or AK and was too cautious
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bode
Old 08-19-2007, 12:46 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 lead out the flop. Youve repped your hand like a scared JJ/QQ/AQ the way you played it. You should be value betting every street to suck the life out of his AK.

As played, its really bad.
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Chopper
Old 08-19-2007, 01:02 AM #3 (permalink)  
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agreed. VERY passive. i understand your thought process, but you still have to be aggressive until proven wrong. you very likely gave the hand away to KQ+.

and your RR pf was too low, imo. $1.25 and a cold-caller...and you only raise to $4? you have a pp in there and need to punish him with your overpair.

i would RR to $6.50 minimum. you want a loose call or a shove over...not a caller into a weak raise w/ sc's and such that could smash your AA w/o you knowing it.
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griffey24
Old 08-19-2007, 01:25 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 Wow, yah I agree that you gotta play this more aggressively. Definitely bet every street.

As played, if you're actually worried about being beat and wanna play this passively, you gotta at least check call here. He's only betting $8 into 18ish.
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Chopper
Old 08-19-2007, 01:39 AM #5 (permalink)  
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one more thing..

i tend to get into trouble overplaying marginal hands...but set this up right from the start, and its NOT marginal.

i also see "monsters under the bed," especially when i'm running poorly.

but, give me AA, and i'm looking for a stack most times, if possible. sure, i lose stacks to sets/two pair hands all the time...

but i PUNISH AK, KK, QQ, etc when they cant let go, either.

this is not a hand to "look for monsters." save that for AK when you hit the K, or get your cbet raised on a T high flop.
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Pelion
Old 08-19-2007, 04:48 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper

i would RR to $6.50 minimum.
That is excessive. $4 is fine. If he gets in there with suited connecters then hes chasing with the worst hand and will likely be chasing for most of the hand when he flops a flush draw or straight draw. We wont get married to our hand on terrible boards and we will also raise with a wide enough range to protect us from people calling big preflop raises with speculative hands. We dont need to completely blow him off of everything preflop. Charging him for comming along will do fine.
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crazycrazy
Old 08-19-2007, 09:42 AM #7 (permalink)  
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its good that u can lay down big pairs.
his range for plaing like he did is AA,KK,AK,65s,77,44(on turn quite unlikly),and very very unlikely KQ.
according it was 4way flop u have to judge for urself if he goes in with speculative hands pairs,connectors, this was good situation to go in, even with his stats.
so ur ahead of AK,65s... prolly not the worst fold. especially oop. in position u may call that weak turn bet.
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bode
Old 08-19-2007, 01:58 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 didnt i read somewhere that making "big folds" is way worse than habitually making hero calls?
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martindcx1e
Old 08-19-2007, 04:20 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fisherman
I put him on a range of QQ/KK, perhaps AK or JJ.
wtf man did you notice that you had AA? you are ahead of the range that you put him on. you check/called the flop and then check/folded to a less than 1/2 psb on the turn. why even play AA then?
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Pelion
Old 08-19-2007, 04:46 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Bode-ist
didnt i read somewhere that making "big folds" is way worse than habitually making hero calls?
That totally depends on image/table conditions etc etc. Alot of the medium stakes players are pretty aggressive with draws/air so when they get AA its the nuts on any board.

Against small stakes passive fish I cant see how making hero calls isnt going to destroy us. Having said that this is a spot where our hand is seriously underrepped and we are getting pretty good pot odds to continue. OP said it himself. We are way ahead of his range here.
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crazycrazy
Old 08-19-2007, 05:30 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode-ist
didnt i read somewhere that making "big folds" is way worse than habitually making hero calls?
folding 1 pair is big fold ?
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Ash256
Old 08-19-2007, 05:57 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 That's really bad. You HAVE to lead the flop, and as played you have to call the turn because your hand is so grossly underrepped.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 08-19-2007, 06:24 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 what I think happened:

OP played this hand and lost to a set after he played it completely differently. Grossly overthinking the situation, he realizes that a turn fold was the best because he can only have a set here (which is not true). He then butchers the HH and decides to post it as a big laydown.
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bode
Old 08-19-2007, 07:38 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycrazy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode-ist
didnt i read somewhere that making "big folds" is way worse than habitually making hero calls?
folding 1 pair is big fold ?
lol. folding AA on this board given the passive action so far is a BIG (read: bad) laydown.
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fisherman
Old 08-19-2007, 08:04 PM #15 (permalink)  

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I can assure you Iowa this is an unedited version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycrazy
its good that u can lay down big pairs.
his range for plaing like he did is AA,KK,AK,65s,77,44(on turn quite unlikly),and very very unlikely KQ.
according it was 4way flop u have to judge for urself if he goes in with speculative hands pairs,connectors, this was good situation to go in, even with his stats.
so ur ahead of AK,65s... prolly not the worst fold. especially oop. in position u may call that weak turn bet.
Looking at his stats gives a much narrower range IMO. He's 11/3. This guy would not be cold-calling calling 65s, 77 or 44 into a re-raised pot. AA mathematically is very unlikely. I think he would have bet bigger with AK and with KK he knew he had top set and thought he may as well get something rather than nothing by betting small.
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crazycrazy
Old 08-19-2007, 08:25 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode-ist
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycrazy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode-ist
didnt i read somewhere that making "big folds" is way worse than habitually making hero calls?
folding 1 pair is big fold ?
lol. folding AA on this board given the passive action so far is a BIG (read: bad) laydown.
i think i was speaking more about generaly folding overpairs....

here, as played he had no info on turn (had to rase flop , bet turn) and by calling he is basicaly going all in or folding... i dont like that spot at all and i dont like to be there playing for stack against 11/3...
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wufwugy
Old 08-20-2007, 06:12 AM #17 (permalink)  
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 Shit, I fold KK here all day.
 
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martindcx1e
Old 08-20-2007, 06:13 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycrazy
here, as played he had no info on turn (had to rase flop , bet turn) and by calling he is basicaly going all in or folding...
calling an $8 turn bet will leave him with like $33 behind. how is this basically going all in and how does calling = folding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fisherman
Looking at his stats gives a much narrower range IMO. He's 11/3. This guy would not be cold-calling calling 65s, 77 or 44 into a re-raised pot. AA mathematically is very unlikely. I think he would have bet bigger with AK and with KK he knew he had top set and thought he may as well get something rather than nothing by betting small.
You already assigned him a range in the OP. You are way ahead of his range. Folding to that turn bet is -EV.
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Lithium
Old 08-20-2007, 10:24 PM #19 (permalink)  

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I think the preflop action was fine, although you definitely could get more in if you wanted to take down the pot there or isolate against another big pair or AKs-AJs.

IMHO, and as noted by other players, you make a big mistake on your flop play. I think in this situation you have one of two options:

1. make a large bet (i.e, psb) and see where you are at. If the guy makes a shove into your bet, then you have some thinking to do, otherwise, you call or re-raise anything reasonable, or

2. check to induce the bet (which is what happened here). Many players when checked to will bet out hoping to take it down with a marginal hand. With AA, that just might be the right line on this board. Since it was the one taken, your mistake is not making a substantial raise to put the villian to the test.

While a good deal of poker is about ranges and the cards you get, a large part of it is making the other guy make the tough decisions. A raise on the flop after the check, or a substantial lead out, does exactly that.
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Deanglow
Old 08-20-2007, 11:06 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 1. He didn't reraise PF
2. You completely under-repped your hand for something like QQ or JJ
3. He has AK wtf shove turn.

Don't become a victim of the "he has to have it!!!" syndrome.
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Chopper
Old 08-21-2007, 12:48 AM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium
...make a large bet (i.e, psb) and see where you are at.
no offense personally, but i HATE this statement.

you dont bet large for information...at lower stakes. thats a leak.

you bet to PROTECT, or for VALUE only. if "info" is all you are looking for, you shouldnt be in the hand, imo.

you find out "where you are at" as a result of betting.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

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Lithium
Old 08-21-2007, 03:26 AM #22 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper

no offense personally, but i HATE this statement.

you dont bet large for information...at lower stakes. thats a leak.

you bet to PROTECT, or for VALUE only. if "info" is all you are looking for, you shouldnt be in the hand, imo.

you find out "where you are at" as a result of betting.
None taken, but your analysis is fairly irrelevant to my game, and also to the specifics of this thread.

With respect to my comment, it was not as you apparently took it, "bet to find out where you are at," it was "bet and find out where you are at." there is a difference.

With respect to the hand discussed, Hero has an overpair to the board, a PSB is a value bet that allows him to find out where he stands in the hand. If the villian comes way over the top, he has a decision to make. Otherwise, he cannot figure himself for beat.

I also don't agree with your comment in general. There are at least three other reasons to make a bet or a call.

1. To bluff;
2. To set up a play later in the game, and;
3. To get information, such as when you flop middle or bottom pair on an uncoordinated board or to find out at showdown what the villian was willing to bet with on earlier streets.

Not personally playing microstakes, however, I can't speak to the mentality of those players. I only play $100-$500 buyin no limit live cash games, so I may be used to a different type of player and length of session.
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martindcx1e
Old 08-21-2007, 06:37 AM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium
I also don't agree with your comment in general. There are at least three other reasons to make a bet or a call.

1. To bluff;
2. To set up a play later in the game, and;
3. To get information, such as when you flop middle or bottom pair on an uncoordinated board or to find out at showdown what the villian was willing to bet with on earlier streets.
the discussion is about betting/raising, not calling. you don't bet to set up later plays, and betting only to get information is like betting just for the sake of betting.
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Chopper
Old 08-21-2007, 01:26 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium
None taken, but your analysis is fairly irrelevant to my game, and also to the specifics of this thread.
understood, but this is a rather microstakes post/HH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium
I also don't agree with your comment in general. There are at least three other reasons to make a bet or a call.

1. To bluff;
2. To set up a play later in the game, and;
3. To get information, such as when you flop middle or bottom pair on an uncoordinated board or to find out at showdown what the villian was willing to bet with on earlier streets.
not recommended in a microstakes game. too fancy. i understand there are places and times for these, and i use them all too often myself down here, but they should be very rare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium
Not personally playing microstakes, however, I can't speak to the mentality of those players. I only play $100-$500 buyin no limit live cash games, so I may be used to a different type of player and length of session.
well, i can...its mostly "fit or fold." much like you see at your live games. $100 NL live plays much like microstakes. and $500 isnt much better, either. so, in effect, you are playing micros.

you are used to some different things (bigger pf raises to thin a field, way fewer hands per hour taxing your patience), but i doubt the games play any tougher than OP's 50NL example.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

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Pelion
Old 08-21-2007, 04:02 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium
to find out at showdown what the villian was willing to bet with on earlier streets.
This is a leak. If you want to see what hands villain is showing down then pay attention to hands you arent involved with. Dont cost yourself extra by being curious.
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BankItDrew
Old 08-21-2007, 06:15 PM #26 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
what I think happened:

OP played this hand and lost to a set after he played it completely differently. Grossly overthinking the situation, he realizes that a turn fold was the best because he can only have a set here (which is not true). He then butchers the HH and decides to post it as a big laydown.
This is also what I think happened. All I could think of during the reading of the hh is: "ewwwwwww, why, owwwww my eyes."
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littleogre
Old 08-21-2007, 07:38 PM #27 (permalink)  

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 the op is gonna have a hard time beating even low stakes playing so scared. Not sure why a bet on the flop scared him so much. I mean people have been known to bet the flop turn and river with worse then an over pair.
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Lithium
Old 08-21-2007, 11:30 PM #28 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium
to find out at showdown what the villian was willing to bet with on earlier streets.
This is a leak. If you want to see what hands villain is showing down then pay attention to hands you arent involved with. Dont cost yourself extra by being curious.
Only if the villian plays everyone the same. If they do, I won't utilize this tool, but if it is someone whose play I need to think about, I will.

Also, watching a hand and making a read is different than being in the hand and making a read. I won't call a huge bet in relation to pot size (or any bet if I have the nut low or close to it) just to see if my read was right, but if the bet is small enough, my hand is good enough, and my chip stack large enough, I will call even if I feel beat. Sometimes I am beat, and sometimes I win, but in both cases I get information I want.
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martindcx1e
Old 08-22-2007, 05:06 AM #29 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium
to find out at showdown what the villian was willing to bet with on earlier streets.
This is a leak. If you want to see what hands villain is showing down then pay attention to hands you arent involved with. Dont cost yourself extra by being curious.
Only if the villian plays everyone the same. If they do, I won't utilize this tool, but if it is someone whose play I need to think about, I will.

Also, watching a hand and making a read is different than being in the hand and making a read. I won't call a huge bet in relation to pot size (or any bet if I have the nut low or close to it) just to see if my read was right, but if the bet is small enough, my hand is good enough, and my chip stack large enough, I will call even if I feel beat. Sometimes I am beat, and sometimes I win, but in both cases I get information I want.
Lithium, I think you are overthinking it. You can call all you want just to see if your read was right or just for info. Just don't trick yourself into thinking it's +EV cuz it aint.
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Old 08-22-2007, 08:56 AM #30 (permalink)  
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I'm at the very least check-raising the flop, if not, betting out.

I'm check-raising the turn after I have check-called the flop.

Did he show? I think you would have probably taken this down.

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salsa4ever
Old 08-23-2007, 01:36 AM #31 (permalink)  
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I recommend you play Omaha...

your ability to assume they have the nuts surpasses even mine
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Lithium
Old 08-23-2007, 08:33 PM #32 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium
to find out at showdown what the villian was willing to bet with on earlier streets.
This is a leak. If you want to see what hands villain is showing down then pay attention to hands you arent involved with. Dont cost yourself extra by being curious.
Only if the villian plays everyone the same. If they do, I won't utilize this tool, but if it is someone whose play I need to think about, I will.

Also, watching a hand and making a read is different than being in the hand and making a read. I won't call a huge bet in relation to pot size (or any bet if I have the nut low or close to it) just to see if my read was right, but if the bet is small enough, my hand is good enough, and my chip stack large enough, I will call even if I feel beat. Sometimes I am beat, and sometimes I win, but in both cases I get information I want.
Lithium, I think you are overthinking it. You can call all you want just to see if your read was right or just for info. Just don't trick yourself into thinking it's +EV cuz it aint.
Whether any particular bet/call is +EV or not doesn't matter. Playing a metagame has very little to do with the ceterius paribus odds of winning over the long run. In fact, there is a school of thought that making only +EV plays is actually -EV.
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Jack Sawyer
Old 08-24-2007, 04:39 AM #33 (permalink)  
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Why oh why would you check/call this flop? If you checked this flop, your only intention is to raise any bet/bet&shove turn.

If he has a set, so be it. But he could most likely have TT-QQ here, or a badly played AK.
KK usually doesn't flatcall pf. It takes a brave man to call a 8bb bet pf raise&reraise with 77 or 44.
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VHS is like a book and a book is like a stack of kindles.
Hey, I'm in a movie!
http://youtu.be/lGdnIrRKDTI
 
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In_Nuce
Old 08-26-2007, 11:12 AM #34 (permalink)  
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In_Nuce
The villian here....

I had TT....

Called pre for setvalue beacuse i put him on a big pair with that raise, and was expecting the be paid alot if that was the case and the flop was nice to me.
When the flop came and he checked it i thought he was afraid for the K and put him on QQ-JJ...but i was a little afraid for slowplayed monsters, thats why the small bet. He just call and check turn also....hmmm...i bet again and prepared for folding against reraise but he folds and shows AA...wow.
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Fnord
Old 08-26-2007, 12:31 PM #35 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salsa4ever
I recommend you play Omaha...

your ability to assume they have the nuts surpasses even mine
5 stars, would read again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 08-26-2007, 02:27 PM #36 (permalink)  
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IowaSkinsFan will become famous soon enoughIowaSkinsFan will become famous soon enough
 If you give me the HH # (and it's the correct HH) i will give you $20. I promise.
Check out the new blog!!!
 
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In_Nuce
Old 08-26-2007, 02:41 PM #37 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
If you give me the HH # (and it's the correct HH) i will give you $20. I promise.
Talking to me ?
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martindcx1e
Old 08-26-2007, 05:08 PM #38 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by In_Nuce
but he folds and shows AA...wow.
oh ya OP don't EVER show the table something like this or they will all just run you over.
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
 
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GrindCity3
Old 08-28-2007, 09:41 AM #39 (permalink)  
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play more aggro there
I gotta get back to the money....
 
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bode
Old 08-28-2007, 10:25 AM #40 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by In_Nuce
The villian here....

I had TT....

Called pre for setvalue beacuse i put him on a big pair with that raise, and was expecting the be paid alot if that was the case and the flop was nice to me.
When the flop came and he checked it i thought he was afraid for the K and put him on QQ-JJ...but i was a little afraid for slowplayed monsters, thats why the small bet. He just call and check turn also....hmmm...i bet again and prepared for folding against reraise but he folds and shows AA...wow.
post the HH from your db. I want to see if its the same. Im not going to give you $20 like ISF though.
Quote:
eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
 
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spoonitnow
Old 08-29-2007, 04:31 PM #41 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
Shit, I fold KK here all day.
rofl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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In_Nuce
Old 08-31-2007, 10:59 AM #42 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode-ist
Quote:
Originally Posted by In_Nuce
The villian here....

I had TT....

Called pre for setvalue beacuse i put him on a big pair with that raise, and was expecting the be paid alot if that was the case and the flop was nice to me.
When the flop came and he checked it i thought he was afraid for the K and put him on QQ-JJ...but i was a little afraid for slowplayed monsters, thats why the small bet. He just call and check turn also....hmmm...i bet again and prepared for folding against reraise but he folds and shows AA...wow.
post the HH from your db. I want to see if its the same. Im not going to give you $20 like ISF though.
EverestPoker Game #1955811908: Table Berlin-8 - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:49:40 - 2007/08/18
Seat 1: ploert ($42.75)
Seat 2: Morph444 ($54.70)
Seat 3: kapitza ($62.05)
Seat 4: querreque ($27.83)
Seat 5: Ibanezrg ($47.75)
Seat 6: Menghini ($45.87)
Seat 7: boon99 ($19.30)
Seat 8: XMarsX ($45.00)
Seat 9: Poker_Lolo ($11.75)
Seat 10: amartne ($48.50)
boon99 posts the small blind of $0.25
XMarsX posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Menghini10 of Hearts 10 of Spades
Poker_Lolo folds
amartne folds
ploert raises to $1.25
Morph444 folds
kapitza folds
querreque calls $1.25
Ibanezrg raises to $4.00
Menghini calls $4.00
boon99 folds
XMarsX folds
ploert calls $2.75
querreque folds
*** FLOP *** King of Clubs 7 of Spades 4 of Diamonds
ploert checks
Ibanezrg checks
Menghini bets $3.00
ploert folds
Ibanezrg calls $3.00
*** TURN *** King of Clubs 7 of Spades 4 of Diamonds 4 of Hearts
Ibanezrg checks
Menghini bets $8.00
Ibanezrg folds
Uncalled bet of $8.00 returned to Menghini
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Menghini mucks
*** SUMMARY ***
Board: King of Clubs 7 of Spades 4 of Diamonds 4 of Hearts ]
Menghini collects $19.00
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