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Kbryce23
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03-14-2009, 01:05 AM
Post subject: Fold JJ Preflop?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 152
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Viilian is 8/3 over 300 hands. Would it be a bad idea to just fold my JJ preflop since he is raising UTG or can I play for set value since I know he has a big hand? Do villians this nitty ever raise AQ/AK type hands UTG? Also is flop call bad and should I have bet the river?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB ($7.15)
UTG ($6.67)
Hero (UTG+1) ($5)
MP1 ($9.95)
MP2 ($2.95)
MP3 ($9.38)
CO ($10.50)
Button ($11.77)
SB ($3)
Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J , J
UTG bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, 7 folds
Flop: ($0.47) 3, 10 , 8 (2 players)
UTG bets $0.30, Hero calls $0.30
Turn: ($1.07) 5 (2 players)
UTG bets $0.45, Hero calls $0.45
River: ($1.97) 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks
Total pot: $1.97 | Rake: $0.05
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ArcadianRock
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 295
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I wouldn't fold JJ preflop, he might have had QQ+ but what if he has AKs? Both deserve a pretty sizeable raise PF and JJ is ahead still.
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sil693
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 609
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why do we call 2 streets unimproved post flop if we are calling pre flop for set value?
what is his range preflop?
what is his range postflop?
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Valuebet the river
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sil693
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 609
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Outlaw
Valuebet the river
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srsly? wtf.
name me one hand that an 8/3 UTG raiser is calling a vbet on the river with here that we beat.
ONE HAND SIR?!?!?!?
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Kbryce23
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 152
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sil693
why do we call 2 streets unimproved post flop if we are calling pre flop for set value?
what is his range preflop?
what is his range postflop?
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Calling all the way is what I was uncomfortable with. I think his preflop and postflop range is jj+ Is it even worth calling for set value with him being so tight I doubt I would even get much out of him if I do hit my set.
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sil693
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 609
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kbryce23
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sil693
why do we call 2 streets unimproved post flop if we are calling pre flop for set value?
what is his range preflop?
what is his range postflop?
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Calling all the way is what I was uncomfortable with. I think his preflop and postflop range is jj+ Is it even worth calling for set value with him being so tight I doubt I would even get much out of him if I do hit my set. |
If his range is AA/KK/QQ then set mining is obviously fine. If the flop comes Jxx - bingo.
What I was hinting at, is that if we are setmining here, its because we estimate his preflop range to be AA/KK/QQ. Therefore, when we miss our set, why do we call 2 streets??
Its almost like you're "widening" his range postflop because there are no overcards to your pair.
I think I explained that pretty shitty. But do you see what I mean?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Meh on the flop call. Fold the turn.
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clvacva
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 200
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would the opponent check QQ-AA on the river?
 maybe he put you on an 8
whats an 8 vpip range like
TT-AA, AJs-AKs AQo/AKo KQ
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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its the 3 thats the important stat here being the number of hands he raises preflop and its over 300 hands .Then factor in that he's UTG so should be at the tightest part of his range .3% comes out roughly 99+,AKs
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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If c-bet % is high enough, I guess calling the flop is fine. Turn is an easy fold imo.
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The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
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Kbryce23
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 152
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by oskar
If c-bet % is high enough, I guess calling the flop is fine. Turn is an easy fold imo.
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Cbet is 33%
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amifat
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 92
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by clvacva
would the opponent check QQ-AA on the river?
maybe he put you on an 8
whats an 8 vpip range like
TT-AA, AJs-AKs AQo/AKo KQ |
yes this opponent can check QQ-AA on the river, hes card scared as hell.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Would you normally 3bet this against a 14/11?
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OneEyeLefty
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: In the batter's box. Already 0-1 count....
Posts: 125
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I lay down pre-flop. However, once I call. I keep the pot as small as possible. I am not giving anymore money away if I know I am behind and calling for set value.
Lefty
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Careful what you wish for.....you just may get it!
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Kbryce23
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 152
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Would you normally 3bet this against a 14/11?
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Yes
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kbryce23
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Would you normally 3bet this against a 14/11?
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Yes |
ohhhh really?
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Kbryce23
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 152
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kbryce23
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Would you normally 3bet this against a 14/11?
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Yes |
ohhhh really? |
Yes.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kbryce23
Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kbryce23
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Would you normally 3bet this against a 14/11?
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Yes |
ohhhh really? |
Yes. |
What does your 3bet against a 14/11's UTG open with JJ achieve?
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Kbryce23
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 152
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kbryce23
Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kbryce23
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Would you normally 3bet this against a 14/11?
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Yes |
ohhhh really? |
Yes. |
What does your 3bet against a 14/11's UTG open with JJ achieve? |
If the 14/11 raises with AK or AQ and calls my 3bet I am getting more money in the pot when I am ahead. If I just call and 3 small cards come vilian checks, I bet and he just folds his AK. Doesnt he raise UTG with smaller pp as well.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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He raises UTG with smaller pps as well. And your right about the AK/AQ thing. HOWEVER, you are ahead of his small pps, and his AK/AQ has 50% against your range. And he will either b/f if he misses AK or c/f, so you still win against his AK/AQ quite often.
So by 3betting he folds the smaller pps that you beat. He either folds AK/AQ, which you beat, or calls and only puts money in when he is ahead (unless you hit set also). But, you manage to build a bigger pot against the hands that beat you (QQ+).
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Kbryce23
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 152
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
He raises UTG with smaller pps as well. And your right about the AK/AQ thing. HOWEVER, you are ahead of his small pps, and his AK/AQ has 50% against your range. And he will either b/f if he misses AK or c/f, so you still win against his AK/AQ quite often.
So by 3betting he folds the smaller pps that you beat. He either folds AK/AQ, which you beat, or calls and only puts money in when he is ahead (unless you hit set also). But, you manage to build a bigger pot against the hands that beat you (QQ+).
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I would understand If I was SB and everybody else folded, but since I am UTG+1 there will probably be more callers, and then wont I just be playing my JJ for set value.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kbryce23
Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
He raises UTG with smaller pps as well. And your right about the AK/AQ thing. HOWEVER, you are ahead of his small pps, and his AK/AQ has 50% against your range. And he will either b/f if he misses AK or c/f, so you still win against his AK/AQ quite often.
So by 3betting he folds the smaller pps that you beat. He either folds AK/AQ, which you beat, or calls and only puts money in when he is ahead (unless you hit set also). But, you manage to build a bigger pot against the hands that beat you (QQ+).
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I would understand If I was SB and everybody else folded, but since I am UTG+1 there will probably be more callers, and then wont I just be playing my JJ for set value. |
You could quite possibly get a decent amount of callers. But I'm unsure where you get the idea of you having to sethunt here. It is most likely the opposite and the villains who overcalled are sethunting. QQ+, AK type hands are likely to squeeze, so if you get to an undercard flop (and even some overcard flops), your not going to be in bad shape if another villain or two calls preflop. Yes there will be some flops you have to c/f, but there will be plenty that you can call/raise villain's cbet. And end up winning the pot.
Now on the other hand, if you 3bet and he folds out everything but QQ+, AK (which is a very likely scenario, and some of those hands might 4bet preflop), then you are likely set hunting, OR hoping to win a small pot against a whiffed AK/AQ, and potentially lose a big pot against QQ+.
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Kbryce23
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 152
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kbryce23
Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
He raises UTG with smaller pps as well. And your right about the AK/AQ thing. HOWEVER, you are ahead of his small pps, and his AK/AQ has 50% against your range. And he will either b/f if he misses AK or c/f, so you still win against his AK/AQ quite often.
So by 3betting he folds the smaller pps that you beat. He either folds AK/AQ, which you beat, or calls and only puts money in when he is ahead (unless you hit set also). But, you manage to build a bigger pot against the hands that beat you (QQ+).
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I would understand If I was SB and everybody else folded, but since I am UTG+1 there will probably be more callers, and then wont I just be playing my JJ for set value. |
You could quite possibly get a decent amount of callers. But I'm unsure where you get the idea of you having to sethunt here. It is most likely the opposite and the villains who overcalled are sethunting. QQ+, AK type hands are likely to squeeze, so if you get to an undercard flop (and even some overcard flops), your not going to be in bad shape if another villain or two calls preflop. Yes there will be some flops you have to c/f, but there will be plenty that you can call/raise villain's cbet. And end up winning the pot.
Now on the other hand, if you 3bet and he folds out everything but QQ+, AK (which is a very likely scenario, and some of those hands might 4bet preflop), then you are likely set hunting, OR hoping to win a small pot against a whiffed AK/AQ, and potentially lose a big pot against QQ+. |
I get it. Thanks
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