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deacon_bluez
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02-21-2008, 04:34 PM
Post subject: Fold the AA preflop?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 216
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This post from the Robb's Rant thread made me think of this situation I had in the past week (25NL). First the quote, then the question.
i have one to add. Stop makeing pointless bluffs and plays that have no chace. Example your are in lp and it's raised 3 times befor ot gets to you. You have K/10 off and even if you shove every one will be geting over 2-1 to call. Just throw the damn hand away. Your hand is crushed 99 percent o of the time and your fold equity is nearly 0 Yet i see people mindlessly hit the all in button all the time. I see people limp utg only to shove with a hand like Kq or a small pair after 2 or more players have raised and put 60 percent of their stacks in the pot
My situation was similar, but I was dealt AA on the button. I quit drooling, though, by the time the action got to me. Someone had raised to 8x from UTG, and the bet got 3 callers! So now action is on me with a pot of $8 or so. Normally I would push, but was painfully aware of how often AA gets cracked in a 3 or 4 or 5 way pot. Two of the others were full stacks or more, I think another was around half, and the other a shorty, so I thought my push would get several callers. I thought that even one caller would create pot odds that would be pretty enticing for the rest. I thought quite a while about this before making a rushed call.
The result was that only one folded. I got lucky and caught a set, and I needed it to beat 2 pair. Scooped a very nice pot, but I still have a nagging feeling that I misplayed that hand. Does it make sense to fold AA on the button preflop?
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Sue me if I play too long....
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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no
If I have AA pre and think several people are calling my shove, I'm sticking my chips in happily.
Edit: Also, I'm of the opinion that people starting "fold AA preflop?" threads should have their teeth drilled without anaesthetic while being forced to listen to Celine Dion.
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Jibalob
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Out of my roll
Posts: 512
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If you even considered folding for a single second, stop whatever you are doing, pick up the nearest poker-book and read the section on expected value before you even consider playing another hand of poker.
I'm sorry that I have put it so bluntly but if you have been registered here since Nov 06 and are asking a question like this I thik you really need to start again from the beginning.
Edit: It would be correct to fold AA preflop in only one or two very very specific circumstances when it comes to cash games but I'm not even going to go into it because there is probably < 0.00001% chance of it happening in your lifetime,
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PLEASE READ ULTIMATE BET THREAD IN "ONLINE POKER ROOMS" FORUM
Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]
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REDBRG
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02-21-2008, 04:56 PM
Post subject: AA preflop - +EV?
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#4 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Winnerpeg Winterpeg... I hate Winnipeg...
Posts: 37
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I would think it doesn't matter how many people are going to call your shove, if you have AA, you have a better chance than everyone else. In other words, the more callers, the less chance you have of taking it, but the more $$ you could win. +EV no matter what, right?
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I'm not addicted to blackjack. I'm just addicted to sitting in a semi-circle.
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REDBRG
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Winnerpeg Winterpeg... I hate Winnipeg...
Posts: 37
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jibalob
If you even considered folding for a single second, stop whatever you are doing, pick up the nearest poker-book and read the section on expected value before you even consider playing another hand of poker.
I'm sorry that I have put it so bluntly but if you have been registered here since Nov 06 and are asking a question like this I thik you really need to start again from the beginning.
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Lol... i didn't see your reply, as we were typing at the same time... that's pretty much it, right?
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I'm not addicted to blackjack. I'm just addicted to sitting in a semi-circle.
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Jibalob
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Out of my roll
Posts: 512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by REDBRG
Lol... i didn't see your reply, as we were typing at the same time... that's pretty much it, right?
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Pretty much 
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PLEASE READ ULTIMATE BET THREAD IN "ONLINE POKER ROOMS" FORUM
Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Of course it's possible (even likely!) that your AA is going to get cracked if you get it in multiway, but who cares! It's poker. It's investment. You're getting all your money in with a nice slice of equity - if you're too scared to get your money in with the nuts then poker's not the game for you.
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CoccoBill
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Finding my game
Posts: 423
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21,319,459,200 games 35.004 secs 609,057,799 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 83.308% 73.51% 09.79% 15672826080 2088028800.00 { AA }
Hand 1: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 3: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 4: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 5: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Ya clear fold.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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lol
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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I don't fold at all but cocco's range is flawed
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kmind
I don't fold at all but cocco's range is flawed
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Yea, throw some random PP's and SC in there. AA won't be that far ahead.
Hand 0: 42.054% 35.43% 06.62% 1777135 332005.40 { AA }
Hand 1: 13.797% 10.64% 03.16% 533680 158263.40 { TT+ }
Hand 2: 13.459% 13.11% 00.35% 657293 17740.40 { JTs }
Hand 3: 15.413% 11.56% 03.85% 579954 193088.90 { JJ+ }
Hand 4: 15.277% 15.24% 00.03% 764476 1746.40 { 77 }
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Jibalob
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Out of my roll
Posts: 512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by CoccoBill
21,319,459,200 games 35.004 secs 609,057,799 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 83.308% 73.51% 09.79% 15672826080 2088028800.00 { AA }
Hand 1: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 3: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 4: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 5: 03.338% 01.02% 02.32% 217818720 493902144.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Ya clear fold.
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Now try AA vs AA vs KK vs QQ vs JJ vs TT vs 22 vs 33 vs 44
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PLEASE READ ULTIMATE BET THREAD IN "ONLINE POKER ROOMS" FORUM
Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]
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eugmac
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 739
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Fold the nuts? huh?
Poker isn't about winning pots, it's about making money.
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
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If this was your situation and you still flopped a set we will need to start an inquisition.
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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eugmac
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 739
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Quote:
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Edit: It would be correct to fold AA preflop in only one or two very very specific circumstances when it comes to cash games but I'm not even going to go into it because there is probably < 0.00001% chance of it happening in your lifetime,
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Ok seriously, don't hold out on us... I'm dying to hear what it could possibly be.
Edit: Ok I'm gonna take a wild guess. You've sat down with 100% of your bankroll, which means all the money you have in the world. Your opponent is Teddy KGB, and if you lose this stack, you're gonna get killed, 'cause you owe Teddy KGB the cash that you have in front of you. Preflop, Teddy KGB raises, and you have AA. You 3-bet, he comes over the top. He eats his Oreo. Now you're sure he also has AA, and you are tying at best, and if you lose to a flush you die.
So you should fold AA here.
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Jibalob
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Out of my roll
Posts: 512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by eugmac
Quote:
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Edit: It would be correct to fold AA preflop in only one or two very very specific circumstances when it comes to cash games but I'm not even going to go into it because there is probably < 0.00001% chance of it happening in your lifetime,
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Ok seriously, don't hold out on us... I'm dying to hear what it could possibly be. |
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 02.667% 00.06% 02.60% 174 7247.67 { AcAd }
Hand 1: 08.437% 05.83% 02.60% 16230 7247.67 { AhAs }
Hand 2: 22.166% 22.13% 00.03% 61586 92.67 { KcKd }
Hand 3: 17.619% 17.59% 00.03% 48932 92.67 { QcQd }
Hand 4: 14.441% 14.41% 00.03% 40090 92.67 { JcJd }
Hand 5: 13.319% 13.29% 00.03% 36968 92.67 { TcTd }
Hand 6: 04.919% 04.89% 00.03% 13594 92.67 { 2c2d }
Hand 7: 06.620% 06.59% 00.03% 18328 92.67 { 3c3d }
Hand 8: 09.812% 09.78% 00.03% 27210 92.67 { 4c4d }
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PLEASE READ ULTIMATE BET THREAD IN "ONLINE POKER ROOMS" FORUM
Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]
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eugmac
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 739
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jibalob
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eugmac
Quote:
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Edit: It would be correct to fold AA preflop in only one or two very very specific circumstances when it comes to cash games but I'm not even going to go into it because there is probably < 0.00001% chance of it happening in your lifetime,
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Ok seriously, don't hold out on us... I'm dying to hear what it could possibly be. |
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 02.667% 00.06% 02.60% 174 7247.67 { AcAd }
Hand 1: 08.437% 05.83% 02.60% 16230 7247.67 { AhAs }
Hand 2: 22.166% 22.13% 00.03% 61586 92.67 { KcKd }
Hand 3: 17.619% 17.59% 00.03% 48932 92.67 { QcQd }
Hand 4: 14.441% 14.41% 00.03% 40090 92.67 { JcJd }
Hand 5: 13.319% 13.29% 00.03% 36968 92.67 { TcTd }
Hand 6: 04.919% 04.89% 00.03% 13594 92.67 { 2c2d }
Hand 7: 06.620% 06.59% 00.03% 18328 92.67 { 3c3d }
Hand 8: 09.812% 09.78% 00.03% 27210 92.67 { 4c4d } |
Ok, so I was wildly wrong. But I think my situation is also one where you should fold AA. This is fascinating...
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deacon_bluez
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 216
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Quote:
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Originally Posted by kmind
I don't fold at all but cocco's range is flawed
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Yea, throw some random PP's and SC in there. AA won't be that far ahead.
Hand 0: 42.054% 35.43% 06.62% 1777135 332005.40 { AA }
Hand 1: 13.797% 10.64% 03.16% 533680 158263.40 { TT+ }
Hand 2: 13.459% 13.11% 00.35% 657293 17740.40 { JTs }
Hand 3: 15.413% 11.56% 03.85% 579954 193088.90 { JJ+ }
Hand 4: 15.277% 15.24% 00.03% 764476 1746.40 { 77 } |
Actually, this is pretty close to the actual hand. I'm not at home right now, so I don't have access to the HH, but I do remember that UTG was QQ, there was a JTs, and the other two were middle pairs.
I do see the logic of Ash256:
Quote:
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Of course it's possible (even likely!) that your AA is going to get cracked if you get it in multiway, but who cares! It's poker. It's investment. You're getting all your money in with a nice slice of equity - if you're too scared to get your money in with the nuts then poker's not the game for you.
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It's kinda what I was thinking when I made the call.
My apologies if this thread has been covered. It was such a strange situation at the time that I assumed it had not been. (Otherwise I would have done a search for a similar thread.) I only check in here about once a week or so and did not remember it. And true, it probably never will happen quite like that again. Sorry if it was a waste of your time.
I would caution all (if it matters to you) not to autoflame members who have a sincere question.
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Sue me if I play too long....
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viledge_idot
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DO NOT GO ALLING WITHOUT TO SEE THE FLOOP!
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Jibalob
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Out of my roll
Posts: 512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by deacon_bluez
Actually, this is pretty close to the actual hand. I'm not at home right now, so I don't have access to the HH, but I do remember that UTG was QQ, there was a JTs, and the other two were middle pairs.
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And somebody else with AA? Thats a pretty crucial part of the example I've shown above.
Also, even if you found yourself in this EXACT situation, folding would still be incorrect unless you were on the BB, UTG has open-shoved, everyone else around the whole table has called and then they are all nice enough to turn over their cards and show you what they have! Even now folding may be incorrect due to stack sizes etc etc.
The simple answer - never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever fold AA preflop in a cash game.
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PLEASE READ ULTIMATE BET THREAD IN "ONLINE POKER ROOMS" FORUM
Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]
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viledge_idot
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jibalob
The simple answer - never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever fold AA preflop in a cash game.
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LOL joo art a n00b. A reel palyer know when it is to half to lay teh aces down! If joo art going to lose why is it to put your mobnies in the pot?
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by viledge_idot
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jibalob
The simple answer - never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever fold AA preflop in a cash game.
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LOL joo art a n00b. A reel palyer know when it is to half to lay teh aces down! If joo art going to lose why is it to put your mobnies in the pot? |
Nice gimmick account.
Never fold AA preflop in a cash game.
Rarely you should fold AA in certain very specific tournament spots that you likely won't see ever in your life.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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viledge_idot
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by viledge_idot
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jibalob
The simple answer - never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever fold AA preflop in a cash game.
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LOL joo art a n00b. A reel palyer know when it is to half to lay teh aces down! If joo art going to lose why is it to put your mobnies in the pot? |
Nice gimmick account.
Never fold AA preflop in a cash game.
Rarely you should fold AA in certain very specific tournament spots that you likely won't see ever in your life. |
Joo art biger n00b! I has already to flod teh Aces beforez teh flop een a satuulite on duh bubble when a shawty ees alling und a chipleeeder push alling! I knuwz whun to flod da aces!
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CoccoBill
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Finding my game
Posts: 423
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Quote:
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Originally Posted by kmind
I don't fold at all but cocco's range is flawed
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Yea, throw some random PP's and SC in there. AA won't be that far ahead.
Hand 0: 42.054% 35.43% 06.62% 1777135 332005.40 { AA }
Hand 1: 13.797% 10.64% 03.16% 533680 158263.40 { TT+ }
Hand 2: 13.459% 13.11% 00.35% 657293 17740.40 { JTs }
Hand 3: 15.413% 11.56% 03.85% 579954 193088.90 { JJ+ }
Hand 4: 15.277% 15.24% 00.03% 764476 1746.40 { 77 } |
Yeah 4:1 for our money with 42% equity, terrible.
Now with all seriousness, with AA you'll have to pry my stack off my dead fingers for it to not be in the middle, in any situation not from the twilight zone.
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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^^^
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CoccoBill
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Finding my game
Posts: 423
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ash256
^^^
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Um...I didn't know being funny was a prerequisite for posting here, my apologies.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I think he was talking to the idot 
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Just playing to improve.
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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Soz Bill, I'm slow at posting 
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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lol.... then wow.... then lol again.
get it in with the best hand...
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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Aces is one of the few, if only hands, that always retains positive EV no matter how many players you're going to the flop against. Just because you get cracked more often doesn't mean you didn't get your money in good.
Problem is, the more players there are, the more you REALLY want to be AI so that you don't end up making a mistake postflop and rewarding someones bad play.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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don't think i would compare AA to the situation that i described
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 5,040
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AHHHH I BROKED IT!!!!!!
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 1: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 2: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 3: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 4: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 5: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 6: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 7: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 8: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
Hand 9: -1.#IO% -1.#J% -1.#J% 0 0.00 { AA }
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yourfather
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: In your fridge
Posts: 603
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Obvious push and fist pump. One question I have is is, what is the optimal amount of players you want all in with you preflop if you could chose? i.e. where do you get max $EV all things considered?
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CoccoBill
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Finding my game
Posts: 423
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ash256
Soz Bill, I'm slow at posting |
Oh oops, bad thread read from my part. And I was already ready to bluff-reraise. :P
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by yourfather
Obvious push and fist pump. One question I have is is, what is the optimal amount of players you want all in with you preflop if you could chose? i.e. where do you get max $EV all things considered?
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I would think it would be against 22 players none of which have either of the two remaining A's in the deck.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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lean86
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Brazil
Posts: 14
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If you're folding AA pre-flop then what hands are you going to play?
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DavePA
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: PA
Posts: 20
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No
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lean86
If you're folding AA pre-flop then what hands are you going to play?
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probably the ultra rare pocket set
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