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Danh Bai
Old 08-25-2008, 03:14 AM     Post subject: Flushaphobia! #1 (permalink)  
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I'm getting flushaphobia! It seems like every other time I make a set, straight, top 2 pair etc there's 2 or 3 to a flush on the board. I've been burned so many times when I bet it/call it. I do punish people for trying to draw out, but i'm not always sure they were on a draw or just had s.t. else.

Had one last night in a live game:

Qd8d4d Ad 6c

I had 88 in the hole, put a feeler bet on the flop, one opponent, he just calls, another feeler bet on the turn, he calls and goes all in on the river. Hero?

I folded, he had 2 pair no diamonds. I told him i had AJ no diamonds.
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swiggidy
Old 08-25-2008, 03:40 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 What's a feeler bet? It's probably wrong.
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
 
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Fnord
Old 08-25-2008, 03:42 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Bet bigger and go broke with your big hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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wellrounded08
Old 08-25-2008, 04:14 AM #4 (permalink)  
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That feeler bet isn't a min. bet is it? Because I will call those with bottom pair. Min. bet's get and deserve no respect.(if that's what a feeler is...)
At least not at the micro's.
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Danh Bai
Old 08-25-2008, 04:43 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiggidy
What's a feeler bet? It's probably wrong.
So, like 1/3 the size of the pot. My reasoning was I could see if my 8's were good - if he had a flush he's gonna raise or call. If he raises big i'm out, small i call and see if a boat develops. If he doesn't have a flush he may fold there thinking I do and i take the $$ there. At least that was my reasoning.

I always see them doing those bets 'to see if their xx's are good' on High Stake Poker
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Danh Bai
Old 08-25-2008, 04:57 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wellrounded08
That feeler bet isn't a min. bet is it? Because I will call those with bottom pair. Min. bet's get and deserve no respect.(if that's what a feeler is...)
At least not at the micro's.
It was about 1/3 pot. And if the 4th diamond didnt come, i was planning to make a big bet on the turn.
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daven
Old 08-25-2008, 05:43 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danh Bai
I always see them doing those bets 'to see if their xx's are good' on High Stake Poker
I love that other players watch poker on tv!

feeler bets are generally not a good idea.

in the hand you posted, you gotta let us know the action pre-flop, the type of player you're up against, and stack sizes.

In almost all situations you should be betting pot on this board - if it was raised pre then the only likely hands you're scared of getting it in against are AA/QQ/AdKd/AdJd (the turn shows he didn't have those, but on the flop you don't know that), but you should be very scared of letting Adx see another card cheaply. 1/3 pot is a silly bet here.
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bjsaust
Old 08-25-2008, 05:50 AM #8 (permalink)  
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I'm generally trying to get my set ai on a monotone flop. On turn you're just throwing money away with a 4-flush out there (without a read that opp is as moronic as he apparantly is).
Just playing to improve.
 
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Fnord
Old 08-25-2008, 06:56 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Live players don't raise light often enough, you need to bet your good hands strong and let them think about it....and call.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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rspeirsmlb
Old 08-25-2008, 08:58 AM     Post subject: My thoughts. #10 (permalink)  
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If you "feeler bet" and he has any sort of diamond it's an "instant" call on his part. If I were you, I would have bet 2/3 or pot size and try to take it down right there after the flop. MAKE HIM PAY TO SEE ANOTHER CARD. He calls with one diamond, congratulations you're ahead, and still have outs to top a flush. He has roughly (9 outs) 36% to hit flush and you have roughly (6 outs) 24% chance to improve to full house with a MADE HAND to his draw.....He flops a flush with your set....it's a cooler, buy in again and play your A game. Am I right or am I wrong?

In live game play last week playin 1-2 I woke up with pocket aces. I raised 4 times the BB. One caller. Flop was 10s As 2s. He checked the flop. I put him all in....he thinks for 3 minutes (really 3 min) and calls with 6s 8s. Why he called my raise preflop with this hand baffles me. It happens and it sucks, gotta deal with it.
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settecba
Old 08-25-2008, 09:21 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Dont do feeler bets, they are weak IMO. A Pot sized bet with this flop is what i would do. If turn isnt a diamond, or being a diamond completes your boat, keep betting strong. If its a diamond you can check and call a bet if you have odds to make your boat. I have just played a hand similar to yours in 10NL. Here it is:

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Nickelhand ($2.15)
UTG+1 BASF1 ($4.22)
MP1 TMTTPT22 ($6.39)
MP2 lilv1114 ($8.75)
MP3 Hello Dolly ($9.03)
CO spudmerola ($2.10)
BTN njjmd ($2.35)
SB deb1958 ($9.33)
BB Hero ($9.90)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 9 players) Hero is BB
3 folds, lilv1114 calls $0.10, 3 folds, deb1958 calls $0.05, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.30, 3 players)
deb1958 checks, Hero bets $0.30, lilv1114 calls $0.30, deb1958 calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.20, 3 players)
deb1958 checks, Hero checks, lilv1114 bets $1.20, deb1958 calls $1.20, Hero calls $1.20

River: ($4.80, 3 players)
deb1958 checks, Hero bets $1.30, lilv1114 calls $1.30, deb1958 goes all-in $7.73, Hero goes all-in $7.00, lilv1114 goes all-in $5.85

Final Pot: $27.98
lilv1114 shows:
deb1958 shows:
Hero shows:

Hero wins $26.62 ( won +$16.72 )
lilv1114 lost -$8.75
deb1958 lost -$9.33
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oskar
Old 08-25-2008, 12:46 PM #12 (permalink)  
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oskar has a spectacular aura aboutoskar has a spectacular aura aboutoskar has a spectacular aura about
 What do you want to feel out? You're something like 90% to have the best hand here. If they call they're probably weaker and/or have a flushdraw, and you're giving them the right odds to draw. With a psb you might even get a raise from 2 pair, tptk or a nut-draw, and you can safely push it in.

Did he show 2 pair?
The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
 
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wellrounded08
Old 08-26-2008, 01:19 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Like oscar said.

Let's look at preflop odds

Quote:
Common odds when holding two unsuited cards:


Code:
flopping a four flush                                                                2.245%

Common odds when holding two suited cards:


Code:
flopping a flush   0.842%
So what makes you think you're not good on the flop here again?
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oskar
Old 08-26-2008, 02:54 AM #14 (permalink)  
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oskar has a spectacular aura aboutoskar has a spectacular aura aboutoskar has a spectacular aura about
 Dude, that's the odds when the flop is not already out!
With that flop each player is about 40% to have a 4-flush, but it's unlikely they're going to play a 4 high flush draw. The odds for any given player to have a made flush there are about 1 in 25
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Old 08-26-2008, 03:02 AM #15 (permalink)  
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umm GIVEN that the flop is monotone, the chance of a flopped flush is higher

then given that 3 cards are of one suit, there are 10 more of that suit left in the deck out of 47 we don't know
so the chance of him having the flush is 4.16% or so, but slightly higher adjusting for the fact that he's going to play suited cards more often than unsuited
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wellrounded08
Old 08-26-2008, 03:20 AM #16 (permalink)  
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PWNED What a fish.<me.
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overflow
Old 08-26-2008, 03:20 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Life becomes a lot simpler when you realize they have the flush much less frequently than they don't have it, and they're still paying you off with a lot of stuff they were even if it wasn't a monotone flop, or 3 flush on the turn. E.g. playing big pots with big hands on a 3 flush board is still fairly profitable because of all the times they dont have the flush and think you're bluff-repping it with a one card flush draw, middle pair, or something like that.

Also, how sweet is it to get it in with a set on the turn against the nut flush draw?
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Danh Bai
Old 08-28-2008, 04:56 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Thanks for all the advice. I've played with more balls in this situation the last few sessions and won majority of the time.
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sarbox68
Old 08-28-2008, 07:46 AM #19 (permalink)  
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For a while there, I was seeing flushes and I wasn't even playing poker...

Please don't use the word "feeler bet" again... feeler bet implies betting for the sole purpose of getting information. Betting for information makes my balls itch, and I do not like itchy balls.

A big part of this is reads... but I would def PSB the flop on the hand you posted. Odds are real good they don't have a flush, you DO have a set... and even if they do, you got outs to boat.

The flop bet with balls does several things... It probably gets money in good (for you...)... it forces them to prove they've got a hand (by calling or raising your bet...) ... and, if you're in position, it may give you a free card (or at least initiative...) on the turn...

Bet to gain initiative... bet to build a pot... bet to get value... bet to block and control pot size... but pls don't just throw some money in to find out where you at... esp at these levels... 'cause you likely to find out where you at is with a few less chips....
 
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wellrounded08
Old 08-30-2008, 09:44 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Itchy balls... lol...

I just played this hand and this thread came to mind.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($5.17)
CO ($11.34)
Hero (Button) ($4.99)
SB ($3.69)
BB ($11.12)
UTG ($5.01)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 2, 2
UTG raises to $0.20, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.20, SB calls $0.18, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.65) 4, A, 2 (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $0.40, Hero raises to $1.20, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.80


Turn: ($3.05) 7 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $3.59 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $3.05 | Rake: $0.15

Comments welcome.
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Old 08-30-2008, 10:07 PM #21 (permalink)  
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it's fine if AK is willing to stack off here
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wellrounded08
Old 08-30-2008, 10:19 PM #22 (permalink)  
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There's not much way I could change it. The flop bet was just a little over Pot size, so either way, I was in on the turn. The only way i'm getting my money in bad is AA 44 or SC's o' clubs.
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