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Rondavu

03-08-2005, 01:40 PM Post subject: Flush Draws

#1 (permalink)

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Betting out my flush draw

I want to know how you money makers handle a strong flush draw after the flop. This is how I handle it. Tell me if I'm correct in my method.

If checked to me, I bet out half the pot if it's not giant. If it's a huge pot I bet out a quarter or whatever isn't overextending myself but still taking a stab at it while drawing.

If one big blind bet to me I raise to two big blind if I have an over card. When the bet is more, this is when it gets confusing to me. I know I have 9 outs, so I have a 35% shot to improve with two cards to go, or 20% if I plan to see one card.

I just don't know if I should stay in here if the odds are right given that there are people betting behind me. Do you bail here if there's a chance someone will raise and blow your pot odds?

If someone could explain how they handle this unique situation perfectly, then please let me know. I feel like it's a definate hole in my limit and no limit game.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

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a500lbgorilla

03-08-2005, 03:33 PM

#2 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

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Sometimes the best line is just to call and chase. Sometimes folding is appropriate.

I'll usually lead out with my draws to build a pot, be the aggressor, set my own price, give myself 2 ways to win and disguise the hand.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

BigmacAg

03-08-2005, 04:15 PM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 29

I'm not what you would call a money maker, but here is my opnion. Vary it up. I know it sounds tripe, but you don't wan't to play the same hand the same way all the time. Yes, the odds will determine when it is a good idea to call a bet. In the situation when you are on the button, I would say play it depending on your reads of the players in the pot. If you feel you have a good chance of picking up the pot with a bet, then do it. If you know there is someone who is agressive and likely to blow you pot odds if you check to them, then raise. If you know that same person will likely re-raise and destroy your pot odds, then maybe checking or laying it down is the best idea. The more you know about the people in the hand, the better decision you can make. The pot odds are just one part of the equation.

<Buaidh no Bas>
Victory or Death

ilikeaces86

03-08-2005, 04:17 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Some times I will just fold my flush draw if I know there is an agressor behind me. Other times I will check it to him and when he bets push on his ass. Other times I will bet into him and see what he is going to do. The key is you have to disguise your hand.

Rondavu

03-08-2005, 04:56 PM

#5 (permalink)

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To me, betting every single time on a flush draw is self varying, because you would bet out with TPTK as well. How can they put you on a flush draw as opposed to TPTK? Unless you bet differently with each they can't.

I guess what I'm saying is this.... Can there really ever be a tell tale sign someone's on a flush draw? If your an opponent, and that person bets out the draw, you surely can't think "Well he bet, so he must be on a draw".

I believe in varying my game, but at what point does it become overkill? I might argue that varying how you bet a draw is just that. It's overkill because no one can possibly put you on a flush draw if you bet out every draw from now till the end of time. How could they know what you have?

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

Fnord

03-08-2005, 04:58 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Draw cheap, push when you hit and watch them call off their stack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Rondavu

03-08-2005, 05:04 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Draw cheap, push when you hit and watch them call off their stack.

You really can't push when you hit, unless it's on the river. If you hit on the turn you have to act timid in my opinion. Any good player will put you on a flush if you push 3 suited on the turn. Then you won't get any chips. If I bet out my flush on the flop, and then I hit the turn, I will then bet the same amount I just bet on the flop as if I am still unimproved. Usually they push back trying to represent the flush themselves, and then I either smooth call or go back over the top. To me that maximizes value.

Pushing right when you get it seems to defeat the purpose of draining the most chips from your opponent.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

BigmacAg

03-08-2005, 06:24 PM

#8 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 29

Quote:

To me, betting every single time on a flush draw is self varying, because you would bet out with TPTK as well.

I see what you are saying. But I look at it like this. If I notice that you bet with a flush draw, (from the times I have seen you show them down), I am less likely to be decieved when you do the same thing and hit it. I do agree with you though that by keeping your play consistant, you do make it harder to put you on a hand.

My concern was with the idea that if I am on a draw and they bet x amount I would do __________. Knowing the player the bet comes from is probably more inportant than the amount of the bet.

<Buaidh no Bas>
Victory or Death

a500lbgorilla

03-08-2005, 08:21 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Draw cheap, push when you hit and watch them call off their stack.

You should also pay attention to disguising your hand some what.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

poskid_1982

03-10-2005, 09:36 AM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Midwest

Posts: 392

I generally like pushing when I hit huge. If you want to maximize pot value you have to sometimes allow your implied odds do the talking for you and play against the charts. Bet earlier if you've got a tight player in the pot with you or just come alive and push on a loose player. Whatever you feel will maximze your pot at the time is what you should do. But be careful if you dont like losing a pot or two it gets frustrating chasing draws sometimes.

Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.

JeffreyGB

03-10-2005, 02:56 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Quote:

Draw cheap, push when you hit and watch them call off their stack.

You really can't push when you hit, unless it's on the river. If you hit on the turn you have to act timid in my opinion. Any good player will put you on a flush if you push 3 suited on the turn...

If this happens, you can note it. Next time you can bet huge when the cards come and you don't have it, and still take the pot from this guy. Plus, most people don't expect "decent" players to bet once an obvious draw completes, unless they don't have it. Just as you think no one will call, they think that you'd have to be an idiot to bet it. The very fact that it's an automatic slowplay by most people makes a good argument for playing it fast and hard.

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montimus

03-12-2005, 05:48 AM

#12 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 154

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Draw cheap, push when you hit and watch them call off their stack.

Exactly how I play flush draws, especially if I've got a low flush. With the ace or king high, I may check/raise, or bet low to give the appearance that I'm on a bluff, giving someone the opportunity to raise.

Like I say a lot of the time, how you play the hand really depends on what you think your opponent is holding. If you think he's on a strong hand like trips, 2 pr or straight, go for it. If you think he's weak, check and let bluff or catch something.

thestrokes

03-14-2005, 01:10 PM

#13 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: chicago

Posts: 119

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigmacAg

I'm not what you would call a money maker

Noun:
Moneymaker: Man with good amount of skill and lot of luck who wins wsop, causing tons of people to become crazed with poker.

Adjective:
To enhacve wealth.
EX:
Man, Chris was a real money maker today!
That full house was a real money maker.
Etc.

VERB:
To money maker: To win a tournamnent, based on a combination of multiple factors.

"Confidence not overconfidence"
-radashack

goolick

03-16-2005, 12:47 AM

#14 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Sarcophagi

Posts: 29

Quote:

Adjective:
To enhacve wealth.
EX:
Man, Chris was a real money maker today!
That full house was a real money maker.
Etc.

Two things: "To enhance wealth" would be a verb, and the way you used it is a noun.

"Only two things are infinite - The Universe, and Human Stupidity, and I'm not so sure about the Universe."
-Albert Einstein

thestrokes

03-16-2005, 12:53 AM

#15 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: chicago

Posts: 119

Quote:

Originally Posted by goolick

Quote:

Adjective:
To enhacve wealth.
EX:
Man, Chris was a real money maker today!
That full house was a real money maker.
Etc.

Two things: "To enhance wealth" would be a verb, and the way you used it is a noun.

This will solve my problem:
mon·ey·mak·ing {spam link}{spam link} {spam link}P{spam link}{spam link}{spam link}Pronunciation Key{spam link}{spam link}(mn-mkng)
n.
Acquisition of money or other wealth.

adj.
Engaged or successful in acquiring wealth.

Actually or potentially profitable: a moneymaking business proposit

by the way that would be one thing, they arent 2 separate ideas, just 2 sentences about one thing

"Confidence not overconfidence"
-radashack

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