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flush draw vs. strait draw. what would you have done?

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highroller

12-04-2004, 02:12 AM Post subject: flush draw vs. strait draw. what would you have done?

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 43

Yesterday I was in a no limit holdem $100 minimum buy in (one rebuy allowed within first hour with blinds of $2/$4). Its sorta a friendly game among friends, but there are no rookies so its a good tough game.

After bout 2-3 hours Im up about $200 (so im sitting on bout $400). I get dealt AcKc and am on the button (there are six of us left in the game at this point.)
I raise to $20 and get 2 callers (the SB and BB).
Flop comes up with 9 clubs 8 clubs and a blank. SB folds (find out later he had pocket 5's, personally i dont like him calling a preflop raise of 5 x BB with pocket 5's), BB thinks for a minute and goes all-in for $180. Now this guy has a tell that i noticed about , well sorta, whenever he is bluffing or semi-bluffing he stacks his chips nicely for 5 seconds before pushing all in. So immediately I am thinking he is on a strait draw with two overs - a jack and ten suited.

So im thinking about my chances of hitting one of my overs or my flush draw and come up with that ive got about a 70% chance to win this hand (actual percentage turns out to be 72%), so I call his all in.
Turn is a blank, and river is an ace giving me a pair and him nothing.

When we flipped up our cards he did have jack ten of diamonds. Now after a big hand like that we all usually say what we think of how the hand was played out. Everyone agreed that they wouldnt have called a $20 preflop bet with suited jack-ten, but it turns out to be the BB fav hand so he "had" to call.

But the surprising thing that came up was that they thought it was bad play to call an all-in on a flush draw with two overs, because they all thought he had flopped a set.
But I was confident when that flop came up that he was either outright bluffing or that he was drawing to strait or flush because of the tell Ive picked up on em.

So my question is if you were confident your opponent was drawing to a flush or strait and you were drawing to nut flush with two overs, you would call an all-in bet, right?

That divided our opinions about 50/50, which is quite surprising as were all really quite good players.

It's hard work. Gambling. Playing poker. Think about what it's like sitting at a poker table with people whose only goal is to cut your throat, take your money, and leave you out back talking to yourself about what went wrong inside.

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|~|ypermegachi

12-04-2004, 02:18 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

they are playing the cards. you are playing the player. it's quite obvious you did the right move. you were ahead preflop. you were still ahead postflop. folding would have been a TERRIBLE mistake because you had the best hand.

oh and welcome to FTR!

a500lbgorilla

12-04-2004, 02:20 AM

#3 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

I always listen to my reads. The more you rely on them, the more they improve. So yes, If I've put him on 2 cards and I've got 2 better cards I'm putting my cash in the middle.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

SteveO

12-04-2004, 03:08 AM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2004

Posts: 755

First, I like the opponents play. He got his money in first on the OESD which gave him 2 chances to win the hand. Too bad some of his outs would have made you a better hand.

The obvious read is that he is betting an overpair like AA-JJ, 2 pair or a set and trying to bet out the draw.

However, you read him correctly and made a big call.

That call showed some guts and there was nothing wrong with it particularly where you are correct.

It becomes one of those, he thought that I thought that he thought problems.

Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!

TDM100

12-04-2004, 06:32 AM Post subject: The sweet sounds of Body Language SCREAMS

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 40

Yes sir, you are correct!
YES, I would have made that call!
Put aside his tell, I am still doin it.

For your game-
One, I just announced to the table of six that I got a pretty good hand.
I should have went ALL IN here, but I am going to give you guy’s a shot.
Anybody raises it, I’m all in.

Two, for this scenario, I’m thrilled as hell its only the blinds!
Goody for me!

Three, I went in 20Xblind and you’re goin all in on that flop without checkin with me first?!
I got position and chip count on ya?!
That’s kinda rude aint it?
I can afford it, CALL!
He kinda forces me to call didn’t he?

For the 1st raiser:
If I had the trip set or 2 pair, I’m checkin to the raiser.
I don’t know if you got a suited good hand yet for one thing.
Also if I got the trips, I don’t want to scare ya off.
On that hi preflop bet I got you on something on high anyhow!
Let’s see what he does!
So for the Late caller-
Anything else besides a check or maybe a token bet, I’m thinking he is BS’n.
I know he aint got the High Club set, I’m holdin them!
Now add in his tell, I’m thinking he is going for a straight, GOODY FOR ME!
Thank ya very much!
Let’s play!

Commentary here:
I’ve seen a lot of this in here, why in GAWDS name do people from the short stack GO ALL IN betting on it to come!
What’s up with that?!
Did somebody famous write a book when I wasn’t looking claiming its best from the short stack, messin with the Chip Leader, and you aint got chit, but you got two more cards to improve upon that chit, move ‘em ALL IN!
HUH?
Or how about on suited flops, when you FORTUNATELY are NOT holding that suit in your hand, PUSH YOUR SHORT STACK IN PAL!
Don’t wait for any bets and for gawd sakes ignore checks,, move ‘em all in!
Cheap CALL, F that, move ‘em ALL IN I said!
Chip Leaders just love that! That tells them to fold.
You’re doin them a favor!
Jesus!
That’s a book I don’t want in my library!

A question for highroller, very curious, when you guys were chit chatin there, did ya happen to relay to your friend that he had a tell?
Don’t be shy, I wanna hear what ya did.

Good Quote BTW.
I live by that quote and hope whomever I play against don’t agree.
Yes I do!

highroller

12-04-2004, 07:04 AM Post subject: Re: The sweet sounds of Body Language SCREAMS

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDM100

A question for highroller, very curious, when you guys were chit chatin there, did ya happen to relay to your friend that he had a tell?
Don’t be shy, I wanna hear what ya did.

Good Quote BTW.
I live by that quote and hope whomever I play against don’t agree.
Yes I do!

noway was I gonna say that the reason I called the all-in on a draw was because I have a tell on him, because he might have realised what it was (though he probably wouldnt have).
That probably contributes to the reason as to why they thought it was a risky move on my part, as they all figured him for a made hand of trips and all I had was a flush draw against his possible trips.

cheers

Xianti

12-04-2004, 10:37 AM

#7 (permalink)

Administrator
Administrator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: facebook.com/xianti

Posts: 5,289

{Moved from Hold'em Hand Histories}

highroller

12-04-2004, 10:53 AM

#8 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 43

whoops didnt realise i posted this in the wrong forum

Humphrind

12-04-2004, 02:27 PM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Kansas City

Posts: 1,887

I haven't read a lot of the replies to this hand. This way I feel like my opinion is untainted. I'm sure others have mentioned that you have a better draw and it is worth the call. But you still only have a draw. Let me type this out and figure the outs involved.

His outs are 2 Ts, 2 Js (not the Tc or Jc) 3 Q, 3 7s. A total of 10 outs. I'm assuming the rag on the flop was not a diamond and he didn't have a backdoor flush posibility.

That's a lot of outs he has. I could mention the outs you have but it's basically everything else.

Code:

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 9c 8c 4h
cards     win   %win      lose  %lose       tie   %tie        EV
Ac Kc     709  71.62       281  28.38         0   0.00     0.716
Jd Td     281  28.38       709  71.62         0   0.00     0.284

OK, and you are calling $180 into a $250 pot. If you knew his hand, then you knew you were a favorite, but a weak favorite. The decision is yours. Even though I am a favorite, it would still be a tough call for me.

I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.

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flush draw vs. strait draw. what would you have done?

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