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Flush-draw against advanced players?

  
 
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Excalibur
Old 01-26-2005, 04:09 PM     Post subject: Flush-draw against advanced players? #1 (permalink)  
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When you play advanced players they will never let you pass with a flushdraw. A pot-sized bet on the flop and your odds are #!%*

How do you play then?

Call against the pot-odds and think of the implied?


If I have position I try a semibluff with maybe-halfpot-bet (depending on the pot). But that won't work against an advanced guy, he will still pot-size...
I love the feel of Hold'em control...
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 01-26-2005, 04:15 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 ...Dont play against advanced players then.


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Excalibur
Old 01-26-2005, 04:29 PM #3 (permalink)  
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What kind of answere is that? That won't make anyone a better player...
I WANT to play agains better players from time to time, isn't that how you improve?

I know I beat fishy players...
I love the feel of Hold'em control...
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 01-26-2005, 04:31 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Drive the betting yourself and conceal the flush draw.

Re-raise for free cards if the pot bet is small.

Flat call on the flop and raise the turn with a scary board.

You may have more outs than you think to a better but unpaired hand.

-'rilla

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LeFou
Old 01-26-2005, 04:40 PM     Post subject: Re: Flush-draw against advanced players? #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur
When you play advanced players they will never let you pass with a flushdraw. A pot-sized bet on the flop and your odds are #!%*

How do you play then?

Call against the pot-odds and think of the implied?
Nyet. This is a good question. But no -- there are basically no implied odds because the adv. player won't put much more in when a 3rd suited card falls.

Unless heshe does NOT think you're on the flush draw. What you have to work on is the semi-bluff raise. It's risky, of course, but accords with well-established principles
1. Faced with a big bet, you should generally raise or fold
2. Give yourself multiple ways to win: opp could fold, or you could complete

You have to convince the player that you have a set or 2pair already, while you draw out. Also Note: if op knows that YOU know the correct pot odds, and you flat call, this might be enough to convince himher that you're not drawing.

It's helpful if you actually have a good hand in addition to the flush draw. But if adv. player never bets less than TPTK it's tough.
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Old 01-26-2005, 05:02 PM #6 (permalink)  
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UG
Old 01-26-2005, 06:33 PM #7 (permalink)  
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If I'm short stacked and on a flush draw I will go all in sometimes. It has worked pretty well for me lately (in home games). I've either bluffed the other guy out of the pot or have been called and hit my flush on 4th or 5th street.

Not saying its the smartest play, but short-handed it has worked well for me...

If we're even stacked and I'm on a flush draw, I'll either throw it away or reraise big (that's already been said before).


 
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UG
Old 01-26-2005, 06:37 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
...Dont play against advanced players then.
I just LOVE reading responses like this. Geeze, man, back off. Not everyone can be a POKER GOD like you are.

A good question doesn't deserve a shitheaded response. Take your bad attitude somewhere else, bro.


 
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elipsesjeff
Old 01-26-2005, 06:43 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate George
Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
...Dont play against advanced players then.
I just LOVE reading responses like this. Geeze, man, back off. Not everyone can be a POKER GOD like you are.

A good question doesn't deserve a shitheaded response. Take your bad attitude somewhere else, bro.
Psht....it was a level headed response. Sorry professor, I'll give better answers next time....

If you have trouble playing against good players, then don't play against them. Its simple logic. Advanced players that know the outs will never give you correct outs to call. So you'll be forced to fold everytime, or make a mistake in calling. Therefore, play against the players that dont know anything, and you can continue to draw.

To beat good players you have to have a MADE hand, you cant draw out on them because you will lose money in the long run.

And I apreciate the Poker Gods comment, really, I do. Now if someone can just tell Fnord...


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dalecooper
Old 01-26-2005, 06:48 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Flush draws are way too obvious to good players. You call down and then come alive when a third of a suit hits the board? Or check-raise his tiny probe bet there? Please. No action for you. The only way a good player will give you action on this hand is if you disguise it somehow. You have to lead the betting or even put in a raise on the flop or turn, before you hit... then check the flush card with fear in your eyes and a quiver in your lip. Or throw out a tiny bet and crumple into your chair with weakness. Yeah it's a little too "weak means strong" and it's silly and all that, but no sensible player will bet otherwise. Your only other option is to just value bet with callable amounts. Bet half the pot on each street after you hit; don't think it over or do any acting, just bet. He'll call or he won't.
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Sed
Old 01-26-2005, 06:49 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Drive the betting yourself and conceal the flush draw.

Re-raise for free cards if the pot bet is small.

Flat call on the flop and raise the turn with a scary board.

You may have more outs than you think to a better but unpaired hand.
I especially like driving the betting or raising if I am on a second best flush draw like KQs etc.

- sed
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a500lbgorilla
Old 01-26-2005, 07:01 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate George
Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
...Dont play against advanced players then.
I just LOVE reading responses like this. Geeze, man, back off. Not everyone can be a POKER GOD like you are.

A good question doesn't deserve a shitheaded response. Take your bad attitude somewhere else, bro.
Psht....it was a level headed response. Sorry professor, I'll give better answers next time....

If you have trouble playing against good players, then don't play against them. Its simple logic. Advanced players that know the outs will never give you correct outs to call. So you'll be forced to fold everytime, or make a mistake in calling. Therefore, play against the players that dont know anything, and you can continue to draw.

To beat good players you have to have a MADE hand, you cant draw out on them because you will lose money in the long run.

And I apreciate the Poker Gods comment, really, I do. Now if someone can just tell Fnord...
I'm sensing a 2+2 mood.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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SteveO
Old 01-26-2005, 07:43 PM #13 (permalink)  
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I am going to assume that you are playing medium suited connectors or Ax suited, preferably AK through A10. If you are playing other suited junk and are faced with an pot sized bet it is generally incorrect to call (unless you are in tourny situation on a short stack and blast all you chips in the hopes of making your hand or folding out the other guy which was mentioned above).

Medium suited connectors you are looking for those situations where you have 4 to the flush and OESD. In that case you are about 50% so fire away. This is assuming a cash game where you don't want to be predictable. In a toury, depending on where you are you almost never want to throw significant chips at a pot w/o the correct odds). If I don't have the str8 to go w/ the flush and there is significant action before it gets to me, It is an easy fold.

If you face a pot sized bet and everyone folds but you, dump the hand b/c even if you make your draw, it won't usually get paid off. If you face a pot bet and there are players left behind you, dump the hand b/c you don't want to get sandwitched if later person raises. If you are faced with a pot bet and 3-4 callers (should be quite unusual with "advanced" players) call and take a look b/c you are getting the necessary pot odds.

If you are on a nut draw and are first to act, you should be the first one into the pot with a significant bet on a semi-bluff. This was also mentioned above but should be mentioned again. The big bet early disguised your draw so if you do hit it you are much more likely to get paid off than if you passively called until the next suited card hit and then proceed to go nuclear. Also, be more inclined to semi bluff with over cards to the board because they provide additional outs.
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elipsesjeff
Old 01-26-2005, 08:50 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 I will also add that to beat good players, you have to know what they have. You have to study the way they play, how they react, and realize when they bluff.

You can't consistently beat good players by drawing out on them.


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dsaxton
Old 01-29-2005, 02:25 AM #15 (permalink)  
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This is a little known secret, but you're also allowed to fold flush draws.
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Admerylous
Old 01-29-2005, 06:33 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
This is a little known secret, but you're also allowed to fold flush draws.
*Gasp.*
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TylerK
Old 01-29-2005, 06:39 AM #17 (permalink)  
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thats a fuckin lie and you know it
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
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Admerylous
Old 01-29-2005, 08:10 AM #18 (permalink)  
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The best part is I remember calling down anything if I had two of a suit and two of that suit hit the flop. Anything. RING RING.
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Scotty321
Old 01-29-2005, 11:08 AM #19 (permalink)  

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Hi,
In my experience it depends on the players your against but the pot odds for a flush draw at the flop are surely enhanced by the fact that if you raise or bet at the flop you may close out the hand right then on the semi bluff adding significantly to the win column in the overall return on your bet investment. Also you can then check if your flush comes disguising the hand and possibly enticing a bet on the river from the oponent who may even call a subsequent raise.
This vastly increases the profit from flush hands that are otherwise often damp squibs. When playing against better players you just are not going to make much unless you disguise your hands. Also if you do lose the pot it makes you look like a looser player and that can improve action on more conventional pairs and other made hands on the flop. If you "feel" your playing against better players it is hard not to tighten up too mych and then you are a sitting duck especially to big stacks. This method has certianly transformed my profits recently. (like I actually have profits now!)

Just my hapence worth.

Scott
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Scotty321
Old 01-29-2005, 11:08 AM #20 (permalink)  

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Hi,
In my experience it depends on the players your against but the pot odds for a flush draw at the flop are surely enhanced by the fact that if you raise or bet at the flop you may close out the hand right then on the semi bluff adding significantly to the win column in the overall return on your bet investment. Also you can then check if your flush comes disguising the hand and possibly enticing a bet on the river from the oponent who may even call a subsequent raise.
This vastly increases the profit from flush hands that are otherwise often damp squibs. When playing against better players you just are not going to make much unless you disguise your hands. Also if you do lose the pot it makes you look like a looser player and that can improve action on more conventional pairs and other made hands on the flop. If you "feel" your playing against better players it is hard not to tighten up too mych and then you are a sitting duck especially to big stacks. This method has certianly transformed my profits recently. (like I actually have profits now!)

Just my hapence worth.

Scott
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