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miracleriver
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09-30-2007, 01:39 AM
Post subject: flopped straightflush draw in the sb. what to do?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 173
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
MP2 ($1.95)
CO ($2.28)
Button ($5.36)
Hero ($2.24)
BB ($2.90)
UTG ($1.94)
UTG+1 ($4.21)
MP1 ($2.91)
Preflop: Hero is SB with A , 3.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02, CO calls $0.02, Button calls $0.02, Hero completes, BB checks.
Flop: ($0.14) T , 4, 2 (7 players)
Hero ??
Obviously a great flop but how should I play it being first to act: bet/raise, check/raise? Should I be happy to put it all on the flop?
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daven
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: the ether
Posts: 3,667
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I bet $0.12 here and three-bet any re-raise. You probably have 12 clean outs (depends if anyone has a set, nobody has 36) so I'd be prepared to get it all-in on the flop, but would prefer not to.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 865
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You're prolly better than 1.9:1 to hit either your flush or straight by the river. So every $ you can get called by at least one other player on is + for you. I agree w/ Daven... PSB out (may take it down right there), and if not you're still good up to AI if you have to before the Turn hits.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,238
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start building a pot. nut flush, an overcard, a str8 draw, and the str8flush possibility. what are you waiting for?
thats like 15 outs. in a limped pot, your A is prolly clean. play it hard on the flop...you have a large edge in equity here. if he raises you, i'd strongly consider shoving .
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,606
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lead out .12, and 3 bet anything, fold to a monster raise though.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Stars $16 and $27 Sngs
Posts: 4,737
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I would check it, you have draws to strong hands but nothing right now, you want a multiway pot, someone will probably bet it and you should call or raise, depending on the action
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davekp2003
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 80
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I agree with the people saying bet out, two reasons A) you may (highly unlikely at that level) take the pot down betting .10. B)you want to build big pots with big hands.
The other side of the coin though, you want to keep the pot small with drawing hands and build it with made hands. Hmmm perhaps a good idea to check raise someone here, as if the third club comes it should kill your action.
I guess I probably shouldn't have commented sorry!
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,238
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by davekp2003
I agree with the people saying bet out, two reasons A) you may (highly unlikely at that level) take the pot down betting .10. B)you want to build big pots with big hands.
The other side of the coin though, you want to keep the pot small with drawing hands and build it with made hands. Hmmm perhaps a good idea to check raise someone here, as if the third club comes it should kill your action.
I guess I probably shouldn't have commented sorry!
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youre right, the flush may very well kill your action. thats why you try and get it in right now, imo.
i used to play combo draws (10+ outers) very weakly. and it was a big mistake once i started to pay attention to "equity." you need not have the better hand at the moment to have the most equity in a pot. we prolly all have heard that before, and think we understand it, but i still dont fully grasp that concept. sometimes you need to hear something a hundred times before the light goes on, ya know?
you have the most equity with combo draws right here on the flop. if you are over 50% equity (12 clean outs), you need to try and get it all in asap, as this is also where you have the most fold equity with a big raise, or 3bet...which doesnt matter since you only have a draw and are very unlikely to have the best hand currently...that is what make such aggressive play on the flop so profitable with combos. **if the percentages say you will win the hand 50% of the time, obv, you will lose 50% of the time, too.....however, anytime you get your opponent to fold and give you the pot, you profit. you only need to get someone to fold ONE time in your life for a 50% shot to be profitable....minus the rake. with aggression, someday before you turn 100 y/o, someone will fold off early, agreed?**
however, your equity, if you miss the turn, gets slashed by half. you go from majority stake to less than one third (polly more like one quarter) instantaneously...another reason to be aggressive on the flop. most of the time, if you are unimproved on the turn, you need to use your "skills" to determine whether you need to keep firing (because you can blow villain out) or play better pot control and only continue if you receive proper pot odds with a little bonus for implieds...if he kept up with you on the flop, he will likely commit himself (if he's not already) on the river, giving you your implieds.
as for you dave, and the "not commenting..." i have made so many donkey posts here at FTR (btw, yours was far from a donkey post), that i cant even count. but, its the only way you learn/contribute....by asking/commenting.
if your idea is way off, believe me, the posters here will let you know about it. but, most provide you with an explanation, too, as to why its wrong.
there are many different ways to play this type of hand. some +EV, some really +EV. and thats what we will piss and moan about. i prefer to get it in on the flop, if possible, because it gives a nit like me a chance to show i can be really aggressive with draws...and buy action on my made hands...hopefully.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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martindcx1e
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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you want to build a pot, but don't get all-in plz. you are usually behind to the type of hand that wants to get all-in against you here. the only way you should push here is if you believe you have a lot of fold equity. you should probably only treat this as a 12-outter.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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miracleriver
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 173
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Thanks all for the great input.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
you want to build a pot, but don't get all-in plz. you are usually behind to the type of hand that wants to get all-in against you here. the only way you should push here is if you believe you have a lot of fold equity. you should probably only treat this as a 12-outter.
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Do you mean not to go all-in as an open-shove on the flop or not go through a raising war where all the money eventually goes all-in on the flop? If the latter, is it because they are so many people seeing the flop or do you usually play your big draws like that?
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martindcx1e
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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don't raise and try to get it all-in. you are an underdog to the types of hands that would normally want to get all-in with you. this is not some huge 15-outter. your hand is uglier than it appears.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Pelion
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,182
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You definately don't want to be getting it allin on the flop here (and especially not if the turn blanks). You arent open ended and your equity sucks against a set and isnt that good against 2 pair. People arent going to be 4/5 bet shoving a single pair here after limping preflop all that often.
b/3b is usually fun with a big combo draw like this because the pot is usually raised and the 3bet can be a push. In a limped pot here bet / 3bet allin is a mistake since you arent winning enough when they fold to make up for the times they call with a set/ 2pair. Bet / 3bet that isnt a shove isnt an amazing move because it builds a big pot out of position where you dont really know what to do on the turn when you miss (plus if they 4bet allin you probably have to call and be slightly behind).
Since there isn't alot in the pot already, and since alot of players at these stakes call WAY too much, meaning your fold equity is lower and your implied odds are higher, I prefer to just check/call and keep it multiway. If the pot were bigger or our stack was shorter so we could b/3b allin or close to allin then Id rather go that way.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Kagey
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 158
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Not sure if this is correct, or a bad habit I picked up somewhere, but I usually lead out for half the pot, the logic being that you can keep it multi-way since at this level people will generally call with any piece of the flop, and you are unlikely to raised. Often even if the turn blanks you can pick up a cheap or free card on the turn. Best of all is when someone is chasing a lower flush.
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Jack Sawyer
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Viva la Puteria! / Nar Shaddaa Red Sector obv.
Posts: 2,424
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check/ call
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Pelion
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,182
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kagey
Often even if the turn blanks you can pick up a cheap or free card on the turn.
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Not when we act first
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,238
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kagey
Not sure if this is correct, or a bad habit I picked up somewhere, but I usually lead out for half the pot, the logic being that you can keep it multi-way since at this level people will generally call with any piece of the flop, and you are unlikely to raised. Often even if the turn blanks you can pick up a cheap or free card on the turn. Best of all is when someone is chasing a lower flush.
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i feel you get raised more often when you lead out 1/2 pot. if you want to discourage a raise, lead out 3/4 to pot. make it the same as your cbet/value bet. that way they cant put you squarely on the draw.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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martindcx1e
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kagey
Not sure if this is correct, or a bad habit I picked up somewhere, but I usually lead out for half the pot, the logic being that you can keep it multi-way since at this level people will generally call with any piece of the flop, and you are unlikely to raised. Often even if the turn blanks you can pick up a cheap or free card on the turn. Best of all is when someone is chasing a lower flush.
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i feel you get raised more often when you lead out 1/2 pot. if you want to discourage a raise, lead out 3/4 to pot. make it the same as your cbet/value bet. that way they cant put you squarely on the draw. |
1/2 pot is fine. no one can tell that your 1/2 pot bets mean you have a draw.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 7,995
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bet/push
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,238
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my bad. what i meant to emphasize was....
keep it the same as your other leads, whatever they usually are.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,663
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i just want to point out that if it was an OESF you are safe to get AI on the flop, and you actually want to.
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martindcx1e
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
bet/push
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why?
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,094
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
bet/push
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why? |
Because hand ranges and equity calcs don't exist when you win the BBJ twice.
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martindcx1e
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
bet/push
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why? |
Because hand ranges and equity calcs don't exist when you win the BBJ twice. |
i actually lol'd irl at that...awesome lol.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Pelion
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,182
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
bet/push
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why? |
Because hand ranges and equity calcs don't exist when you win the BBJ twice. |
No... Because we have a straight flush draw and he has a draw to quads and if we both make it...
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 7,995
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
bet/push
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why? |
please calculate equity then figure out why we dont want to bet/3bet all in.
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Pelion
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,182
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
bet/push
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why? |
please calculate equity then figure out why we dont want to bet/3bet all in. |
Because we only have 33% equity against a set (pretty much the only hand that calls a b/3b massive overbet allin after limping preflop on a T high very seperated board)?
PS even if his range here is sets and any overpair we have 45% equity and he doesnt have an overpair that often...
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,094
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I'm in agreement with betting just not b/3b AI in a limped pot against passive players over 100bb deep.
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Pelion
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,182
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Yea I think betting out is ok. I actually think its pretty close between bet/call and check/call but I prefer c/c. I just really hate bet/massive overbet shove here when we are going to be so far behind and with very little fold equity (in terms of chips compared to how much is behind) so often.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Stars $16 and $27 Sngs
Posts: 4,737
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[quote="PelionBecause we only have 33% equity against a set (pretty much the only hand that calls a b/3b massive overbet allin after limping preflop on a T high very seperated board)?
[/quote]
I doubt this is true in microlimits, you get all sort of calls with hands like A5, T8 etc...
However I still think check/callign or check/raising, depending on the action behind is the correct move
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,094
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I would lead small, like 1/2pot or less, let's build a pot at least with all our equity and we probably could "buy" our Ace outs as well.
Also, betting small manipulates opponents raise size which is nice because we'd rather put as little money in when behind.
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