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Flopped broadway, then it gets messy

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tunah

01-28-2009, 11:28 AM Post subject: Flopped broadway, then it gets messy

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2009

Posts: 44

This hand was supposed to play itself. I think I butchered it with my bet sizing though. This is an area I don't really understand, I tend to press "1/2 pot", "3/4 pot" or "pot" almost at random, maybe I should play limit

My thoughts are at the bottom and I'd appreciate any input.

Villain is loose and passive, 33/6.

Quote:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (10 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($10)
BB ($3.35)
Button ($1.93)
Hero (MP3) ($10.51)
UTG+1 ($6)
UTG ($15.63)
MP2 ($10)
UTG+2 ($7.66)
SB ($11.17)
MP1 ($10.55)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J

, A

2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero raises $0.40, 4 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.95) 10

, Q

, K

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $0.45, UTG+2 calls $0.45

Turn: ($1.85) Q

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $0.30, Hero raises $1.33, UTG+2 calls $1.03

River: ($4.51) Q

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $1, Hero ?

Preflop: this should have been 0.50 because of the limper, I was lazy and used the 4xBB preset

Flop: I bet too small here because I really wanted him calling with a hand like Qx (he'd called down with second pair before). This should have been pot since the flop hit his range so hard?

Turn: I don't know whether I like this card or not, it scares Kx, Qx now pays me off, maybe he filled up (but only KQ, QT would make sense). I guess I should raise pot here too?

River: Sucks to be me, worst card in the deck, etc. Snap fold right? I don't beat anything other than a busted straight draw.

I know I should put him on a range here, honestly I feel like it's any pair, two pair, jack for OESD, or sooted spades on every street. This seems too big to enumerate and I'm hazy on how it affects my bet sizing anyway, so I tend to pick a particular part to worry about (in this case, keeping 1pairs in the hand).

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AFchung

01-28-2009, 11:47 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: UCLA

Posts: 1,179

1. fire the flop hard. if he has a piece hes going to be calling you anyways. also you dont want to let any straight card hit and split the pot

2. fire that turn way harder.

3. fold the river of course. we can't beat anything ehre

http://afchung.blogspot.com/

Robb

01-28-2009, 12:02 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,072

Robb is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFchung

1. fire the flop hard. if he has a piece hes going to be calling you anyways. also you dont want to let any straight card hit and split the pot

2. fire that turn way harder.

3. fold the river of course. we can't beat anything ehre

QFT

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

xX zorrito Xx

01-28-2009, 01:44 PM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: Wellington, FL

Posts: 300

Send a message via Yahoo to xX zorrito Xx

this is one of those times where I wish I had ace jack of spades with that kind of river to punish the shit outta these chasers...

AFchung

01-28-2009, 01:45 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: UCLA

Posts: 1,179

Quote:

Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx

this is one of those times where I wish I had ace jack of spades with that kind of river to punish the shit outta these chasers...

lol when was the last time you flopped a straight with a redraw to a royal flush

http://afchung.blogspot.com/

01-28-2009, 10:03 PM

#6 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

it looks like a scary flop, but if someone has a king they're not folding
if someone has two broadway cards no matter what they are they're probably calling the flop

so just bet pot, I bet pot on two tone boards all day
bet that turn with a force of an angry god in case he has QJ or something stupid like that

Robb

01-29-2009, 12:08 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,072

hey, iopq is back

surprising us all, however, he suggests betting more and bigger :P

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

xX zorrito Xx

01-29-2009, 12:19 AM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: Wellington, FL

Posts: 300

well this is as close as i got... lol...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($3.82)
Hero (MP3) ($8.72)
CO ($8.16)
Button ($7.80)
SB ($1.80)
BB ($10.13)
UTG ($9.18)
UTG+1 ($6.12)
MP1 ($6.30)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J

, A

2 folds, MP1 calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.20, 3 folds, BB calls $0.15, MP1 calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.62) J

, 10

, Q

(3 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, BB calls $0.25

Turn: ($1.37) A

(3 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets $0.55, Hero calls $0.55, BB calls $0.55

River: ($3.02) K

(3 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets $1.10, Hero raises to $7.72 (All-In), 1 fold, MP1 calls $4.20 (All-In)

Total pot: $13.62 | Rake: $0.65

Results:
MP1 mucked 9

, 10

(straight, Ace high).
Hero had J

, A

(royal flush).
Outcome: Hero won $12.97

Knytestorme

01-29-2009, 12:36 AM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Australia

Posts: 562

1. Preflop - Don't mind bet sizing, my sizing is usually a standard 4x and only really add more for limpers if I am close to the button and have like 3 limpers before me

2. Flop - As stated, bet pot. If anyone has a peice of it then they likely aren't going away and if they don't then they are folding to a 1/2 pot bet as much as they are a psb. We've got the nuts here, let's get as much in as we can.

3. Turn - $2.15 in the pot after UTG+2 bet so need to raise to at least that. Make them make a mistake by staying in without the right odds, don't let them in cheap enough that it's not a mistake. We're still only behind to QT, QQ and QK and we can likely rule out QQ based on pre-flop action so keep getting the money in while we're ahead

4. River - Fold....sucks, but you are not ahead of any range here but like AKo. The bet could be seen as a blocking bet though and we only have to be right 1/5th of the time to make it a call but you've shown strength the entire way and he donks into you with a blocking bet on the river...I can find an easy fold here but you know, I'm likely to look him up just because that bet looks way weaker than a value bet and I can't see him doing it to try to induce a raise from you. Yep, I'd call here but it wouldn't be expecting to win the hand, it would be for information I think so we can know in future what that size bet means from them.

Robb

01-29-2009, 12:59 AM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,072

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knytestorme

my sizing is usually a standard 4x and only really add more for limpers if I am close to the button and have like 3 limpers before me

This is a bad habit to get into - you leave too much reverse implied odds raising to only 4x behind a couple limpers. BB is getting better than 2 to 1 on his cold call.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knytestorme

Yep, I'd call here but it wouldn't be expecting to win the hand, it would be for information I think so we can know in future what that size bet means from them.

This is another bad habit - try to see him showdown in a similar situation against someone else. I have spent WAAAYYYY too much money buying information that was freely available to the alert and patient.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

Knytestorme

01-29-2009, 01:06 AM

#11 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Australia

Posts: 562

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knytestorme

my sizing is usually a standard 4x and only really add more for limpers if I am close to the button and have like 3 limpers before me

This is a bad habit to get into - you leave too much reverse implied odds raising to only 4x behind a couple limpers. BB is getting better than 2 to 1 on his cold call.

[/quote]

Yeah, but if we have only one limper ahead of us and people left to act after us raising to 5xbb rather than 4x doesn't really do much imho....I agree though if we have 3+ limpers then we need to start pumping it up more to take away the odds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knytestorme

Yep, I'd call here but it wouldn't be expecting to win the hand, it would be for information I think so we can know in future what that size bet means from them.

Again, agree but it's situational still. In a case like this, if the villain hasn't been at the table too long then I'm not too averse to paying off $1 into $5.51 for some info because the line just looks hinky and could save more more in the long run.

01-29-2009, 01:35 AM

#12 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

he's never bluffing the river here I don't think
the only hand that he'd be betting that doesn't crush us is AJ for a split and he'd be wrong to do it

Robb

01-29-2009, 02:03 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,072

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

he's never bluffing the river here I don't think

iopq is right, imo

At 10nl, you rarely see river bluffs. They play 'em face up, generally. The biggest river mistake 10nl players make is calling big bets on the river, so we try to avoid it. (I know this was a small bet on the river, but bear with me a sec.)

The second biggest mistake a lot of 10nl players make is betting too small with big hands on the river. We can exploit both mistakes by just laying down weak hands to significant river action, and by overbetting our big hands on the river.

Say a pot-sized bet won't get it all in on the river when you've got top set and the flush draw missed. I see lot of guys try 1/4 PSB's, hoping for a call. I tend to shove. Sure, they lay 'em down sometimes, but the great thing about 10nl is that they call down with 2nd pair and TP2K and other junk. They think you're trying to "buy it" or whatever. I will often bet as much as 2x pot on the river. I did it at 10nl tons, and somewhat often at 25nl. It doesn't work as much at 50nl. But it works. You can make some massive monies with big river bets on your good hands.

And that brings me back to this hand. A call here isn't terrible on the river. But I would bet this hand demonstrates the fundamental weaknesses of typical 10nl river play. The way to make money at 10nl on the river is to be the aggressor and bet big with big hands. And learn when NOT to make the Hero call.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

01-29-2009, 06:12 PM

#14 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

what do you beat on the river? only a complete bluff

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