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Flopped air OOP, now what? 2nl

  
 
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heist
Old 05-03-2010, 06:53 AM     Post subject: Flopped air OOP, now what? 2nl #1 (permalink)  
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 It just occured to me I have no idea what to do in this situation.

Villan is 62/23 over 13 hands. I've learned not to give much credit to him calling my raise, because people call with anything at this level.

Considering the size of his bet, it seems like a standard cbet right? (50% of the pot?) But when I've flopped air like this is it the right decision to fold?

I'm thinking if they were holding 77, 22, 44 their bet would either be a lot smaller, or a lot larger. I'm guessing they have KJ+. Ax or some overpair. But being out of position makes it really hard to play this hand. I was also considering that straight draw..

What should I have done? Sorry for the obvious question, I'm looking at the hands that have cost me money today. Playing OOP really messes with my game.

$0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
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Stacks:
UTG ($5.09)
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Hero ($1.84)
MP2 ($1.17)
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SB ($2.69)
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Pre-Flop: ($0.03, 8 players) Hero is MP1
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.08, 2 folds
Flop: ($0.19, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.10, $0.1 to Hero ($1.76)?
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rong
Old 05-03-2010, 07:00 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 The preflop agressor is the one who cbets, not the preflop caller, he just bets.

As for what happened here, you didn't cbet, villain smelt weekness. (probably)

Read all of the links in here: Beginners Digest: LEARNING STARTS HERE
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.

Fucking. Retarded.
 
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heist
Old 05-03-2010, 07:08 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 Thanks for clearing up the definition. I've saves all those articles already but it's taking a long time to get my head around one concept at a time, to observe that in play a few times, go back and reread the article to make sure I understand it. This can take a period of weeks in itself. God it's frustrating.

Some other annoying thing is some of the articles (most of them?) you've referred to aren't linked to the discussion threads anymore. So it's easier to ask stupid questions sometimes.
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rpm
Old 05-03-2010, 10:23 AM #4 (permalink)  
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rpm has a spectacular aura aboutrpm has a spectacular aura aboutrpm has a spectacular aura about
 i honestly dont mind check/folding ace high against a fish here. i doubt he's folding anything that beats you, you're OOP and you are probably actually ahead of a decent part of his range (although if he bets air here much, which you can't tell without reads, then cbetting might be better to prevent him from stealing the pot). the money you make off this guy will be when the flop comes Axx and he calls you down with a heap of weak aces because he plays too many hands.
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Santo2True
Old 05-03-2010, 12:42 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 honestly I think since you raised a cbet on the flop is a good idea in this situation. if villain calls, the turn will hopefully improve our hand and something like a Q would be great to get some money into the pot. But either way, checking the flop shows weakness and gives the villain a chance to bet small as he did and can do with atc.
If you call the flop bet and miss completely on the turn check/fold will be the best move.
Good thing in most of these cases is if villain has completely missed and you call his flop bet he will most likely check through with air until you check the river and then he'll probably take another stab at the pot.
But def. cbet. If you do hit an A atleast you got some money in the pot and if you don't villain will have had to catch something to stay in it with you.
Just my .02c and the way I usually play it. I'm sure others can give much better insight.
"Those who say it can't be done, shouldn't interrupt those who are doing it"
 
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JR9477
Old 05-03-2010, 02:13 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 I cbet the flop (even OOP), we have overcards and a turned diamond can give us some equity.
Playing OOP isn't so bad if you've acquired some reads, start getting them asap!
(Josh)
 
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EasyPoker
Old 05-03-2010, 05:13 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 Bet/fold against certain opps

check/fold against others
[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
 
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rpm
Old 05-04-2010, 12:25 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker View Post
Bet/fold against certain opps

check/fold against others

who do we c/f against and why? and who do we b/f against and why? you realise your post means next to nothing?
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EasyPoker
Old 05-04-2010, 12:53 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by rpm View Post
who do we c/f against and why? and who do we b/f against and why? you realise your post means next to nothing?
My bad.

In short and without going into the precise stats, I would raise/fold against opponents who usually fold to donk bet raises, or signs of major aggression, while usually being less than aggressive themselves - tight players basically.

I would check/fold against players whom I know are very loose-aggressive and bluffy.

Maybe not the answwer you were looking for, but it's certainly what I would do.

Please go ahead and add the necessary bits I ought/need to know.
[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
 
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rpm
Old 05-04-2010, 01:04 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 you think i know? i suck at poker like the rest of the BC. it just serves no purpose whatsoever to say "sometimes you should cbet, other times you shouldn't", if you catch my drift.
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nonofyobiz
Old 05-04-2010, 01:14 AM #11 (permalink)  
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I gotta say at 2NL you should open raise to $0.10 or $0.12, more if there are limpers. You can already guess that he's most likely super loose as he's played like 7/13 hands. So could really have anything at all. You gave away the initiative by not cbetting. I find I could cbet a huge amount of the time at this lvl.

As played I call the flop bet, and see what happens. Like someone above said u could turn an ace, queen, or diamond. Even if u don't a good amount of time he won't fire the 2nd barrel,
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rpm
Old 05-04-2010, 01:49 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 i'm surprised everyone's strongly advocating the cbet. why should we be cbetting air more "at this level" which has the highest amount of loose-passive fish of any poker game online? wouldnt the fact that people call way too much here (and we have the best hand at present a decent amount of the time), tend to make us want our OOP cbetting range to be stronger?
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JR9477
Old 05-04-2010, 04:16 AM #13 (permalink)  
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 I think this board misses much of his range, and when you cbet to 12c you only need him to fold 38% of the time. We can also fire a second barrel if the turn is an A,Q, or heart. (Which happens about 34% of the time)

I'm less likely to cbet AQo, as it has fewer ways to improve (12% chance). After so much aggression mucking to some junk pair, or having to fold to a later bet seems wrong.
(Josh)
 
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littleogre
Old 05-04-2010, 10:37 AM #14 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpm View Post
i'm surprised everyone's strongly advocating the cbet. why should we be cbetting air more "at this level" which has the highest amount of loose-passive fish of any poker game online? wouldnt the fact that people call way too much here (and we have the best hand at present a decent amount of the time), tend to make us want our OOP cbetting range to be stronger?
c-betting air at 2nl is actually mega +ev most players have a fold to c-bett ratio of 60 percent or higher.
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rpm
Old 05-04-2010, 10:47 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 fair enough. my cbet stats are really low so that's quite possibly a leak in my shit. be interested to know what cbet success rate means in HEM? is that just raw % of folds to your flop cbets? don't make me google this.
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EasyPoker
Old 05-04-2010, 10:50 AM #16 (permalink)  
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 where are the forum oracles when they're needed?
[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
 
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Santo2True
Old 05-04-2010, 11:53 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpm View Post
i'm surprised everyone's strongly advocating the cbet. why should we be cbetting air more "at this level" which has the highest amount of loose-passive fish of any poker game online? wouldnt the fact that people call way too much here (and we have the best hand at present a decent amount of the time), tend to make us want our OOP cbetting range to be stronger?

as stated.. most fish who miss and called pre with something weak, which they usualy do are folding to a cbet here like 90% of the time they have nothing at all. Sometimes you can catch them calling with like bottom or middle pair, and if they do call the flop bet that's great, you didn't give them the chance to show the aggression therefore in most cases they are going to believe you have a hand and if they are only calling with bottom pair if the turn doesn't improve their hand chances are the second barrel will make them lay it down and you got some extra money too. worse case they raise us on the turn and we fold, but since we haven't invested too much into the pot it's ok at this point.
I think the key is betting the right amount when cbetting depending on who you are doing it against. A loose fishy player will fold to a .10 bet just as well to a .50 bet cause honestly I don't think they know difference. they just see money going into the pot and they look down and have no cards.
"Those who say it can't be done, shouldn't interrupt those who are doing it"
 
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surviva316
Old 05-04-2010, 06:24 PM #18 (permalink)  
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 itt, a bunch of players who've never played above 5nl make generalizations about how play against 2nl fish differs from play against players at "higher stakes."

reads, people. ranges. equity. maximization. etc.

what better hands fold on the flop? what worse hands call? if he's not folding many better hands on the flop, does keeping the initiative have benefits for getting him off of those hands later? is betting gonna make him play his made hands more passively/aggressively? is checking gonna make him play his made hands more passively/aggressively? is betting gonna make him bluff raise more frequently? is checking gonna make him lead as a bluff more frequently? how do you want him to play the different parts of his range? etc.

it is neither true that all the fish at 5nl play fit or fold, nor that all the fish at 5nl call down with any pair. even if this were a live game, and it WERE true that everyone folded an exploitable amount to cbets, all that means is that you should exploit this tendency by cbetting more, and adjust your range accordingly. it DOESN'T mean that every time you see a flop as the preflop aggressor you should be splashing money into the middle because lol they're such weaktight fish.

RESPECT THE GAME! start talkin' about ranges, equity and maximization and maybe some low stake players will start chiming in
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Poker Guru
Old 05-04-2010, 06:35 PM #19 (permalink)  
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 Bet/fold, though a check/fold is not that bad, too.
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fatguy'06
Old 05-05-2010, 01:38 AM #20 (permalink)  
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RESPECT THE GAME! start talkin' about ranges, equity and maximization and maybe some low stake players will start chiming in
Aight, I'm gonna give this a shot. So you've only got 13 hands with him, but from that his VPIP seems high. With him flat calling a 4xbb you put him on something like..what? 22+,KJ+,Ax?

I have no software in front of me at the moment, but considering you have air at the moment you are shooting for a pair? At that point you should be ahead of most of his range. With 6 outs, thats roughly a 15% chance of catching something on the turn. He bet 50% pot so it looks like a fold to me.

Any error in my judgements?
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littleogre
Old 05-05-2010, 11:14 AM #21 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by surviva316 View Post
itt, a bunch of players who've never played above 5nl make generalizations about how play against 2nl fish differs from play against players at "higher stakes."

reads, people. ranges. equity. maximization. etc.

what better hands fold on the flop? what worse hands call? if he's not folding many better hands on the flop, does keeping the initiative have benefits for getting him off of those hands later? is betting gonna make him play his made hands more passively/aggressively? is checking gonna make him play his made hands more passively/aggressively? is betting gonna make him bluff raise more frequently? is checking gonna make him lead as a bluff more frequently? how do you want him to play the different parts of his range? etc.

it is neither true that all the fish at 5nl play fit or fold, nor that all the fish at 5nl call down with any pair. even if this were a live game, and it WERE true that everyone folded an exploitable amount to cbets, all that means is that you should exploit this tendency by cbetting more, and adjust your range accordingly. it DOESN'T mean that every time you see a flop as the preflop aggressor you should be splashing money into the middle because lol they're such weaktight fish.

RESPECT THE GAME! start talkin' about ranges, equity and maximization and maybe some low stake players will start chiming in
Kinda hard for op to give villain a legit range when he has all of 13 hands on him
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EasyPoker
Old 05-05-2010, 11:50 AM #22 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by littleogre View Post
Kinda hard for op to give villain a legit range when he has all of 13 hands on him
I used to think like this, and to some extent you're right. But what I do think is there are many hands that you can eliminate. If he shows up with one of them, then so be it...you'll now know that his range can include such crap.
[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
 
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JR9477
Old 05-05-2010, 04:43 PM #23 (permalink)  
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 Fatguy, his range is going to be far wider than that. I think it's more likely to be a very loose player (so many at 2nl) than a loose TAG having a lucky streak of hands. But I'm with you and probably folding as played, we don't know anything about his postflop play and how to exploit it.

EP is right though, there are quite a few hands we can eliminate, better to try than to say "it's too difficult". We can't pinpoint his range, as most of it is complete garbage. When thinking about cbetting, we can think about the likely hands he will continue with compared to the size of his range to begin with (which is quite large).

I'm thinking if we cbet he'll probably call some weak pairs, Ax, Straight draws (mostly gutshots if anything), some broadways. He may call or raise A7,K7,88,99,2Pairs/Sets.

Now I'm not saying I fire cbets all the time into unknown players, which I don't normally do (anymore). But this hand has some good playability on most turns, which makes it a bit easier to play even against players we know little about.
(Josh)
 
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