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flop play - evolution, 3-legged zebras + some thoughts on AK

  
 
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daven
Old 05-26-2009, 01:09 PM     Post subject: flop play - evolution, 3-legged zebras + some thoughts on AK #1 (permalink)  
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 Everyone here has huge leaks post-flop. The first street of post-flop is the flop. So, start there...
and get into IRC more often

<daven> i'll note every difficult flop decision the next few sessions
<@spoonNgrind> i mean that's how evolution works right
<daven> i just checked, you're right about sb and bb being biggest win-rate excluding blinds..
<daven> re evolution, you mean?
<@spoonNgrind> nah i mean like
<@spoonNgrind> okay pretend there's a zebra for every flop you see
<@spoonNgrind> and the flops that confuse you or w/e are the retarded zebras with 3 legs
<@spoonNgrind> well you need to pick those guys off first
<daven> got it - lion styles
<@spoonNgrind> idk it's just like the natural order of things to go after the weakest element of some sort of group
<@spoonNgrind> not just from a nigga gotta eat standpoint


<daven> think i'm gonna chuck that in the beginners circle at ftr - cos nobody will bother applying it anyway, but maybe someone will..
<@spoonNgrind> lol go for it


<Luco> my retarded zebra with 3 legs is whiffed AK oop in big pots
<Luco> any 3 legs is generous
<daven> your retarded zebra is likely your pre-flop play with AK
<Luco>
<daven> your lack of assigning a range to your opponents
<daven> and your lack of consideration of board texture against your hand and their range when deciding how to play the flop
<Luco> definitely that last one
<Luco> I don't even know what it means
<@spoonNgrind> AK is so ez to play
<@spoonNgrind> especially if you completely miss
<@spoonNgrind> if villain is folding a bunch of 1 pair hands then bet
<@spoonNgrind> if he's not the check
<@spoonNgrind> zomg bam
<@spoonNgrind> they call me dj spooner
<@spoonNgrind> because after i poker i spooner
<daven> HU. oop. c-bet most boards. Fold to re-raise. If called, barrel most turn scare cards etc - unless villain is like 70+% fold to cbet
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Illfavor
Old 05-26-2009, 03:40 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 Nice post daven.

[rant]

You made an excellent point about Luco's struggles probably being related to preflop mistakes, most specifically the lack of assigning ranges to his opponents. Guys, we only have four options when we play a poker hand (bet, check, call, fold). You cannot, CANNOT, and I mean CANNOT like seriously CANNOT
know if you're playing correctly if you have no assigned a player a range. You just can't. You're flying blind and getting lucky. If everyone seriously thought of a range for every hand they posted, then most posts would be something like "When my opponents range is this weak" or w/e, not "Should I fold to this donk?"

It'd be cool if, instead of answering, people just asked "Well, what's his range?" for every post that didn't include one.

[/rant]
Ich grolle nicht...
 
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xpaand
Old 05-26-2009, 04:56 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 It's funny because that concept is so elementary and common sense, but not everyone thinks that way. Well put Spoon and thanks for posting that Daven.
OP: Beginner to Master

If I bet as a bluff, I should be thinking "am I getting better hands to fold? Is it likely that he will fold x% of the time to a y sized bet to make it +EV?". If I bet for value, I should be thinking "am I getting worst hands to call? Am I ahead of enough of his range that this is a good value bet?".
 
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Ragnar4
Old 05-26-2009, 05:30 PM #4 (permalink)  
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but what if I need to eat?
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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XTR1000
Old 05-26-2009, 07:05 PM #5 (permalink)  
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i only came here for the 3 legged zebra
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred View Post
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
yo
 
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bigspenda73
Old 05-26-2009, 07:28 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 But what's your 2-legged Zebra?
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Ragnar4
Old 05-26-2009, 09:01 PM #7 (permalink)  
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My 2 legged zebra is post-flop play in a 3-bet pot when I've missed horribly.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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Lucothefish
Old 05-27-2009, 10:03 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 1/ Get on IRC
2/ throw away your ego
3/ admit your failings
4/ Learn from better players
5/ apply it to your game
6/ Profit

I nearly put 5 as ????? but old meme is old and anyway it's vitally important. Daven was right btw, too often I just assume they're only continuing to a 3bet with QQ+ and AK, instead of looking at the player as an individual and assigning a range based on what I already know about them.

As my AK is only pairing the flop 8% of the time this month, it's something I can't afford to gloss over.

Ragnar, look:

<@spoonNgrind> AK is so ez to play
<@spoonNgrind> especially if you completely miss
<@spoonNgrind> if villain is folding a bunch of 1 pair hands then bet
<@spoonNgrind> if he's not the check
<@spoonNgrind> zomg bam
<@spoonNgrind> they call me dj spooner
<@spoonNgrind> because after i poker i spooner

What does this mean? Let's look at a very recent post from wonderland. In this example the flop is 6 high, so a bet would be gross because 77+ isn't folding. If the flop was J or Q high a bet becomes a more playable idea, and we haven't even started talking about ranges and tendencies. Look at the flop texture, look at the villain, get a gauge on your FE and make your best judgement.

It would be hawt if someone could expand on this concept. Let's get learnin'
<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
 
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Keith
Old 05-27-2009, 01:34 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 ok this is a UK based joke , but two footed zebras are newcastle fans and a one footed zebra is Michael Owen.
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Benoso
Old 05-27-2009, 02:03 PM #10 (permalink)  
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What's the FTR IRC channel?
 
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Lucothefish
Old 05-27-2009, 02:17 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 It's all in this sticky:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...08-t67665.html
<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
 
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