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Flop aggression and dealing with a shove happy donk

  
 
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Outlaw
Old 01-21-2009, 08:23 PM     Post subject: Flop aggression and dealing with a shove happy donk #1 (permalink)  
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Villain running 18/13, no reads.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($13.60)
Hero (MP) ($10)
Button ($13.30)
SB ($23.10)
BB ($8.05)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 9, 7
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.40, 1 fold, SB calls $0.35, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.90) 10, 5, J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.75, SB raises to $1.70, Hero calls $0.95

Turn: ($4.30) 9 (2 players)
SB bets $3, Hero calls $3

River: ($10.30) 6 (2 players)
SB bets $18 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $10.30 | Rake: $0.50

On the flop I thought he might have Aj, Kj, kq, j10. but on the turn I was 90% sure it was j10 or kq. Should I have shoved flop? Folded flop? Folded turn?

*********************************************
Villain running 59/6.

He had shoved 2 rivers on me previously after I had value bet 2 streets. Can I ever fold here?


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (CO) ($10)
Button ($13.45)
SB ($5.20)
BB ($10.50)
UTG ($4.85)
MP ($6.15)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, 10
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, 1 fold, SB calls $0.35, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.90) Q, 8, A (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.65, SB calls $0.65

Turn: ($2.20) 9 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($2.20) 6 (2 players)
SB bets $4.15 (All-In), Hero calls $4.15

Total pot: $10.50 | Rake: $0.50
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kb coolman
Old 01-21-2009, 08:32 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Hand 1: I don't like opening smallish suited gappers from MP, but meh. Your semi-bluff on the flop gives you odds to call.

Hand 2: When you say shove happy donk, can we narrow this down a little? Is he shoving with TP or no? I don't like playing 2nd pair with an ace on the board against this type of player. Guys like this NEVER fold an Ace.
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bjsaust
Old 01-21-2009, 08:33 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quick tip for 10nl. People dont fold TP.
Just playing to improve.
 
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kmind
Old 01-21-2009, 09:04 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 1. Getting it in on the flop can't be bad but I like your line the best because he can have draws that'll get it in on the flop, yet be dominating/beating you.
2. When you said he shoved two rivers, do you mean he showed up with a bluff/nuts/or you folded? Delay cbetting could work out, but I'd like to hear is fold to cbet%. My guess is he had spades regardless and you pwned but that's just an assumption.
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Outlaw
Old 01-22-2009, 03:19 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Second hand my read was that he was shoving light because he had done it so often recently.. thus my call. He had Aj by the way, he was slow-playing it until the river on a drawy board. Smart guy.

His fold to cbet % was 20%.. sorry to not make that clearer.. I thought he was floating with air/draw then shoving the river on a steal.. I've seen this type of player before.. his river aggression was through the roof.. I guess I just caught him the one time he actually had a hand.
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Old 01-22-2009, 03:32 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Then my first instinct was correct
against these people you need to flop top pair and slow play it to the river to take their stack

it's not good to be taking guesses when your pot odds are non-existant since that's a large overshove
unless you think he will be shoving bluff here more than 50%
how would you have this information if you didn't see him show down a lot of bluffs? sure, he's shoved a lot, but he could be shoving wide for value
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Illfavor
Old 01-22-2009, 04:24 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
how would you have this information if you didn't see him show down a lot of bluffs? sure, he's shoved a lot, but he could be shoving wide for value
This. My encounters with ppl who shove/overbet the river show that they are almost always trying to make up the value they lost by slowplaying in one big dumb bet, which you should rarely call with less than two pair.
Ich grolle nicht...
 
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Outlaw
Old 01-22-2009, 05:00 AM #8 (permalink)  
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I see this a lot too and completely agree.. however, this guy was overbetting the river way too often.. I had to look him up, I just picked a bad spot. If we were deeper its an easy fold.

I did win a couple of big pots with him later since he is also a calling station. I ended up $4 up against him for the session so all is good. He didn't shove the river against me anymore..

I have to remember that at these stakes opponents are all level one thinkers.. sometimes I try to read too much into the action.
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Old 01-22-2009, 10:45 AM #9 (permalink)  
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true, but if he shoves 40% bluffs and 60% value you don't have the odds to call because the bet is so large

the key is to think "is this decision EV+?"
it's not to think "I'll call his shoves with marginal hands, that'll teach him to bluff me!"
it's certainly not "I had to look him up, he's bluffing a lot!"

But I certainly don't truely hate that call IF you think that in the long term it was the correct decision and he had more bluffs in his range than nut hands (top pair when you're that short is the nuts)
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kettleofish
Old 01-22-2009, 01:00 PM #10 (permalink)  
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I would fold turn in hand 1, despite it pairing you that 9 is a pretty bad card.

Hand 2 I'm checking the flop behind given villain. I'd prefer to cbet with the semibluffing hands in my range (9Tss, KsJx, TJ) since you'll likely get paid off when u hit and it's a lot harder to talk yourself into hero calling a 2xpot shove when u have J high
There's only one system. Bet. Lose. Borrow. Steal. Lose. Take the drugs. Lose. Prison. Death.
 
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