Originally Posted by amir is cool

there's absolutely no excuse for you to float in 2nl

Originally Posted by TheBowlBoy

Isolating with T6s is pretty bad at 2NL. I could see an argument for overlimping because of implied odds but folding pre is probably best.

On the turn you're getting 6:1 pot odds but you're around 11:1 to improve to hit your gutshot and you don't even raise the river when you hit. Criminal.

Originally Posted by clvacva

How about villains play?
is hero ever calling with worst like JJ/TT?

Originally Posted by tugger

My pre flop raise serves four purposes.

First, it increases the chances of stealing the button,
Second, it isolates, increasing the chances of me taking it down with a c-bet,
Third, builds a pot should I hit the flop hard.
Fourth, I have post flop initiative.

So raising is definitely preferable to calling. Folding is obviously what I should do, but screw that, I want a LAG image.

The turn is where I'm floating. I'm priced in if I'm flush drawing. I'm not drawing on just the 8, I consider a spade to be good for me, because I have something to represent with a raise and push him off his hand.

And of course I don't raise the river. He might have been betting so weak with a flush draw himself, so he might have me beat. If I raise, he folds everything I'm beating and calls everything that's beating me. I have suddenly got showdown value, but I have only got a straight on a flush board. Raising would be stupid, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Everyone involved played horrible imo

Originally Posted by tugger

"At FTR we play for EV not for an image. You may think playing lagg is fun, but let me correct you right there. Winning money is fun. "

Both is fun to me. I am winning money. $100 in one week at 1/2nl. LAG is not the route to bankruptcy.

"you want to isolate with something that will more frequently flop top pair to take the 2nl fish to value town like KT or something. "

I'm sorry, are you suggesting I play KT instead of T6? Fuck that, I'm much more likely to be dominated with KT. It's insta-muck every time that trash is. At 2nl, top pair isn't all that, believe me. I make most of my money off people who can't let go of top pair. I don't play for top pair, it wins small pots and loses big ones. I want 2pr better, that's where the money is. I can still get value from the fish with hands like T6 against drawing hands by firing all three streets; so long as they miss, they fold the river, and, naturally, they miss more often than they hit. So I make money by value betting with pair/air against drawing fish, and hitting flops hard like set, 2pr, flush draw/pair etc

"you have the initiative, so what, you get to bet your air weak pair or draws into mutliple opponents? That's not profitable. "

No, but it's profitable heads up. If I'm not heads up, then I guess I have to see what the flop says, won't I?

And image is everything. It's not about looking cool or anything, it's about getting paid when I really do have a hand. People make notes, and I want their notes on me to say I'm capable of three-barrell bluffs with air, and piling on the pressure with scare cards. I tend to win bigger pots when I have a flush, and I win a lot of hands when I don't have the flush, enough hands to pay for the times I get called, with change to spare. Profit.


"You think its likely villian has a flush draw, but you're planning to bluff when the flush hits?"

Yeah. Except I don't think it's likely he has flush draw, I think it's in his range. I think it's likely he has Ax or pocket pair, that's what I decided before I made the turn call. I decided he was folding to a river raise if it's a spade. In the end I didn't need him to fold to win the hand.

Originally Posted by tugger

"At FTR we play for EV not for an image. You may think playing lagg is fun, but let me correct you right there. Winning money is fun. "

Both is fun to me. I am winning money. $100 in one week at 1/2nl. LAG is not the route to bankruptcy.

"you want to isolate with something that will more frequently flop top pair to take the 2nl fish to value town like KT or something. "

I'm sorry, are you suggesting I play KT instead of T6? Fuck that, I'm much more likely to be dominated with KT. It's insta-muck every time that trash is. At 2nl, top pair isn't all that, believe me. I make most of my money off people who can't let go of top pair. I don't play for top pair, it wins small pots and loses big ones. I want 2pr better, that's where the money is. I can still get value from the fish with hands like T6 against drawing hands by firing all three streets; so long as they miss, they fold the river, and, naturally, they miss more often than they hit. So I make money by value betting with pair/air against drawing fish, and hitting flops hard like set, 2pr, flush draw/pair etc

"you have the initiative, so what, you get to bet your air weak pair or draws into mutliple opponents? That's not profitable. "

No, but it's profitable heads up. If I'm not heads up, then I guess I have to see what the flop says, won't I?

And image is everything. It's not about looking cool or anything, it's about getting paid when I really do have a hand. People make notes, and I want their notes on me to say I'm capable of three-barrell bluffs with air, and piling on the pressure with scare cards. I tend to win bigger pots when I have a flush, and I win a lot of hands when I don't have the flush, enough hands to pay for the times I get called, with change to spare. Profit.


"You think its likely villian has a flush draw, but you're planning to bluff when the flush hits?"

Yeah. Except I don't think it's likely he has flush draw, I think it's in his range. I think it's likely he has Ax or pocket pair, that's what I decided before I made the turn call. I decided he was folding to a river raise if it's a spade. In the end I didn't need him to fold to win the hand.

Originally Posted by tugger

I don't really agree with KT though. It's obviously a better hand head to head, and it's obviously a better hand overall, but it gets into trouble more often. I don't win money with hands like KT, which is exactly why I muck it.

Originally Posted by illness

Best thing I ever heard about the micro-stakes and 2NL is that bluffing never works, chasing draws is -EV, and the rest of the players on the table aren't even paying attention to what you've done for the past 5 hands. All they're focused on is their cards. So LAG isn't exactly the best way to go about it. Sure you hit your hands hard, but its -EV.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Also, just a fwiw, you didn't make enough on the river to justify your turn call, so the turn call was -EV.

Originally Posted by tugger

I want a LAG image.

Originally Posted by tugger

Yes, you're right, KT has more equity than T6. But is KT a +ev hand? I think really I should be playing neither.

Originally Posted by tugger

I was just being (un)funny. Don't take me so seriously, I'm rarely serious.
I'll play KTs sometimes, just like I sometimes play K8s on the button. KTo can go without any fuss though. Same with AT, it's trash, unless it's suited and late pos, then it's marginal. Like I said earlier, I don't have a list of hands I will and won't play. Some hands are always played (KK, AA), some always folded (83o, 93o), but most can be folded, called or raised, depending on position and action. Both KTs and T6s fall into the latter category, while KTo and T6o are folded the vast majority of the time, blinds being the only exceptions, and maybe button if everyone else folded.

Yes, you're right, KT has more equity than T6. But is KT a +ev hand? I think really I should be playing neither.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

[x] floating itt. Villain actually had a plan to bet spade rivers, as a bluff because he believed villain's range was weak. Floating does not mean you continue with little to no equity. Here villain had some outs, and just so happened to hit his outs.

Whether the decision to float or not was prudent, given his stack size, I probably wouldn't. After villains bet on the river, he has like $0.53c behind. So in most cases on any river that he does bet, we don't stand to have much fold equity (presumably). On the rivers, he does check, then maybe, however, as evident by the way he played this hand (results. use for future hands), he isn't likely to check the river, even with his marginal hands (QQ obv).

Regarding whether the turn call was +EV or not, I'm not going to do the math right now because I'm in class, and also not 100% sure how to go about it at this time. But given typical 2nl villains, I doubt he is folding often to a shove, especially if he bets the river, so bluff raising spade rivers, probably isn't going to be as profitable as you think.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

False. And this just goes to show how bad general statements are in poker. Are you really folding ATs in the CO because it has more than 2 gaps? Obviously not (I hope). I knew this wasn't what you meant, but how could I be sure (lol general stateaments).

Originally Posted by ColdDecked

Oh he did he say he was going to try to take it away on a spade. I probably skimmed through the thread too quickly, so my bad. It's still not the best illustration of a float though.

I'll try to be more careful posting. I just thought that it would be common sense for people to play a hand like big or suited aces. I guess I didn't think people would misinterpret it that way.

Originally Posted by tugger

Villain is a noob

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

what kind of read is this?

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

man you're a cunt because you can't take advice from people that have absolutely crushed your stake and have moved on to cheeseburger blinds instead of being stuck playing for cheeseburger stacks.

Originally Posted by tugger

That's a bit more constructive. I gotta be honest, I'm just tired of holding back when I think people have their head up their arse, I'm past being polite now. But, if you wanna be constructive, that's better.

I'm not attacking somebody just because he's a noob, or because I think he sucks. Even terrible players win big pots. I'm attacking somebody because I think he's weak. When I say "this guy is a noob", I say it so you all know I know nothing about him, not because I'm hunting him down in particular.

But you're right, I do feel I can outplay many of the micro players, it seems to be profitable for me. If I think he has a flush draw, I'll make him pay to chase it and make him fold when he misses. He'll hit one in three, but that's fine, because I win two in three. I'm not wildly taking every oppurtunity to outplay him, I'm trying to pick my spots.

To demonstrate that am taking on board what people say, I'm paying more attention to stack sizes before picking my spot. I'm inclined to agree he was probably calling whatever the river, so yeah I should be more careful, and yeah I shoulda pushed the river here.