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five 2nl hands with one general question

  
 
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nish81
Old 07-01-2009, 09:37 PM     Post subject: five 2nl hands with one general question #1 (permalink)  
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nish81
hi again

so, here's my general question. say I'm in a situation where i check the big blind, or complete the small blind, or limp behind limpers in the buttons with some offsuite broadway or K9s or something. following that, I make TPGK on the flop, or TPCK, or just TP. should I be donking the flop? or checkraising if someone bets is better? and if it's checked all around, should I be donking the turn? here's an example hand, but it's a more general question because I've run into a few cases of this. with something like TP I guess it's good to bet heavy from the flop while you're still ahead, but maybe donking into others give it away that I've made something?

hand 1: (example of above)
actually after looking at the hand I realise it's not the best example because there is someone betting, I think I should have check-raised on the flop? or checked the turn as played?

$0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
7 players
Converted at OMGNOWAIRLY?

Stacks:
UTG PANCHER huk ($2.97)
UTG+1 \o_Dixit_o/ ($5.03)
MP ismaai ($2.71)
CO alexpokerstr ($2.99)
BTN terver2008 ($1.30)
SB fantomasiks ($2.00)
BB Hero ($2.24)

Pre-flop: ($0.03, 7 players) Hero is BB
PANCHER huk calls $0.02, 1 fold, ismaai calls $0.02, alexpokerstr calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.09, 4 players)
Hero checks, PANCHER huk checks, ismaai checks, alexpokerstr bets $0.07, Hero calls $0.07, PANCHER huk folds, ismaai folds

Turn: ($0.23, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.16, alexpokerstr raises to $0.32, Hero folds

Final Pot: $0.55

alexpokerstr wins $0.71 ( won +$0.30 )
PANCHER huk lost -$0.02
ismaai lost -$0.02
Hero lost -$0.25


hand 2: here's another, slightly better example of what I'm talking about maybe

$0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
7 players
Converted at LOL

Stacks:
UTG Chingy19 ($1.50)
UTG+1 balrok11 ($6.08)
MP nonofyobiz ($4.97)
CO masterblanco ($0.18)
BTN greitis ($3.03)
SB eze*21*12 ($0.53)
BB Hero ($1.97)

Pre-flop: ($0.03, 7 players) Hero is BB
1 fold, balrok11 calls $0.02, 3 folds, eze*21*12 calls $0.01, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.06, 3 players)
eze*21*12 checks, Hero checks, balrok11 checks

Turn: ($0.06, 3 players)
eze*21*12 checks, Hero bets $0.04, balrok11 folds, eze*21*12 folds

Final Pot: $0.06

Hero wins $0.10 ( won +$0.04 )
balrok11 lost -$0.02
eze*21*12 lost -$0.02



hand 3:
am I right in thinking that this is a marginal hand that I want to check down and try and showdown as cheaply as possible? or should I be betting it for value. risk maximus is 52/6 over 46 hands, but fantomasiks is 10/7 over 56 hands. he doesnt look like he hit the flop, but I might fold him out if he's hoding something worse.

$0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
8 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG TomHas ($7.73)
UTG+1 Risk Maximus ($9.75)
MP1 fantomasiks ($2.05)
MP2 Hero ($1.98)
CO PANCHER huk ($2.93)
BTN AnsuzPeorth ($2.00)
SB NazPoker ($5.02)
BB Brunu-UFV ($0.94)

Pre-flop: ($0.03, 8 players) Hero is MP2
1 fold, Risk Maximus calls $0.02, fantomasiks raises to $0.08, Hero calls $0.08, 4 folds, Risk Maximus calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.27, 3 players)
Risk Maximus checks, fantomasiks checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.27, 3 players)
Risk Maximus checks, fantomasiks checks, Hero checks

River: ($0.27, 3 players)
Risk Maximus checks, fantomasiks checks, Hero checks



hand 4:
j.r.rams is typical 42/3 and molsen is 39/17, both over ~30 hands. doesn't look like they made anything, should I be c-betting this flop considering my hand doesn't have that much showdown value as a pretty low pocket pair? or trying to showdown as cheaply as possible.

$0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG j.r.rams ($4.55)
UTG+1 TTCoupe ($2.47)
MP1 toutankamy ($4.89)
MP2 Hero ($1.88)
MP3 AntonTuz ($1.24)
CO elagnavi ($4.50)
BTN GrandeCorona ($2.03)
SB pete874 ($2.38)
BB molsen82 ($5.29)

Pre-flop: ($0.03, 9 players) Hero is MP2
j.r.rams calls $0.02, TTCoupe calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.10, 4 folds, molsen82 calls $0.08, j.r.rams calls $0.08, TTCoupe folds

Flop: ($0.33, 3 players)
molsen82 checks, j.r.rams checks, Hero ??


hand 5: (last one )
- no reads on villain, he'd just joined the table. I'm just trying to see where floating fits in, so was it right to float the flop? (or is it not called floating when I have a gutshot). i've seen things like ace high win hands quite a few times at 2nl when people didnt have anything, so I thought I'd see how it held up. (plus i hold two overcards which could have shown up, and i think they count as outs if villain doesnt bet turn too).


$0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
7 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Schorschle99 ($13.22)
UTG+1 Swytee11 ($2.31)
MP lantewaj ($5.08)
CO jeffersom ($0.97)
BTN Hero ($1.97)
SB patraflo ($2.88)
BB sunshinepogo ($2.54)

Pre-flop: ($0.03, 7 players) Hero is BTN
Schorschle99 raises to $0.08, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.08, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.19, 2 players)
Schorschle99 bets $0.06, Hero calls $0.06

Turn: ($0.31, 2 players)
Schorschle99 checks, Hero checks

River: ($0.31, 2 players)
Schorschle99 checks, Hero checks

Final Pot: $0.31
Hero shows:
Schorschle99 shows:

Hero wins $0.31 ( won +$0.17 )
Schorschle99 lost -$0.14




thanks
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
 
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surviva316
Old 07-01-2009, 10:43 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 ISF has a thread on how he suggests leaning much more heavily toward b/f rather than c/c. i couldn't find it but i recommend looking it (there's even a post close to the bottom where yours truly asks about this specific issue that comes up constantly at micro stakes and ISF gives a brief answer). basically, on top of you protecting your equity and getting a better idea of your opponent's range, you're balancing your range with aggression rather than passivity which is very +EV for your range as a whole.

as for the hands you posted, hand 1 is usually a bet, but it's opponent dependent. hand 2 is an iso PF against most limping fish and the flop is like a mega easy bet. hand 3 is like wtf are you doing please god bet. hand for is a check against most opponents. hand 5 has nothing to do with the question but i usually raise here if i think i have any FE, but i'm not certain that's the right answer
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Parasurama
Old 07-01-2009, 11:47 PM #3 (permalink)  
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First of all you're not donking if it's a limped pot.

Second, yes bet.

Hand 1: bet flop and turn
Hand 2: bet flop and turn
Hand 3: definitely bet, and at least bet the river as played
Hand 4: check
Hand 5: bet turn don't raise flop
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Stacks
Old 07-02-2009, 12:26 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Stacks will become famous soon enoughStacks will become famous soon enough
 There are more factors to consider than just "I have top pair". One big factor is the board texture. The worse the board texture, and the more vulnerable your hand, the more likely you should lead out with a bet, assuming the board texture doesn't wtfcrush your opponent's limping range.

If you are likely to have the best hand on the flop; however, there are so many turn cards that will either (1) kill any action you could have gotten, (2) hurt your equity, or (3) allow you to be susceptible to bluffing, then the more likely I am to lead out on the flop.

Say in hand #1, I would definitely prefer leading the flop than check/calling. And would actually probably prefer check/folding over check/calling. We could very well have the best hand. However, there is so many turn cards we are not enjoying (spade, 9, T, J, K, A, 7, 6, 5). So we are really check/calling to check/fold most turns. Instead of doing that, I would rather lead the flop when we (1) have a decent chance of having the best hand, (2) can get value from so worse hands (8x, 6x, loads of draws), and (3) protect our equity against tons of hands, such as overcards.

[note: a hand like JcTc has 28% equity against our hand. So unless we bet pot, he has a +EV call on equity alone. Not to mention his positional advantage. However, most people would fold that to a bet, so we would profit by him folding]

In hand 2, it's still a bet on the flop, but a check isn't bad per se. Your hand is less vulnerable in hand 2, as there are no turn cards that you are absolutely hating. It's still a bet because you have a fairly strong hand in a limped pot here, and therefore often have the best hand, and can get value from quite a few worse hands.

In hand 3, yeah also bet flop. I know your thinking was "well we have a marginal hand with showdown value". However, keep in mind a few things here. (1) We do have a marginal hand with showdown value; however, we can get value from worse hands. Villains could definitely have 33-55, or check/call with Ahi some of the time (2) This isn't a board where a checkback is likely to induce a lot of bluffing. That's because this is a board we would likely bet all of air, and check back only marginal hands, which we are likely to call 1 or 2 streets with, and (3) There are a lot of overcards we aren't thrilled to see in a 3way pot. So a bet here when we likely have the best hand, and can certainly get value, plus we protect our hand for the many not so great turn cards.

Agree with Parasurama on hand #4 again. This board just wtfcollided with villain's ranges. We have very little equity when called, and you could conceivably expect to get check/called, or even more likely check/raised often on this board. Your hand is in Range D against their range, so check it back and fold to any further action.
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