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five 2NL hands for evaluation

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nish81

06-20-2009, 06:02 PM Post subject: five 2NL hands for evaluation

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 295

thank you to anyone with the time/patience to look at any/all of these

(my own evaluation of each hand is at the end)

Hand 1:

No real reads on villain, who'd just joined 3 hands ago. VPIP of 60 over 3 hands, doesn't really count though.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Hero (Button) ($1.89)
SB ($0.95)
BB ($1.61)
UTG ($2.43)
MP1 ($2.99)
MP2 ($1.11)
CO ($2.18)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q

, J

2 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.10, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.23) 2

, K

, A

(2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.16, MP2 calls $0.16

Turn: ($0.55) 3

(2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks

River: ($0.55) 3

(2 players)
MP2 bets $0.20, Hero folds

Total pot: $0.55 | Rake: $0

I'm guessing that raising preflop was my mistake, but I'm more curious about my post-flop play - was the c-bet with the chance of a straight correct play? And the turn check/river fold.

Hand 2:

BB is 62/16 and button is 20/12, both over 25 hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Hero (SB) ($1.59)
BB ($0.81)
UTG ($0.98)
MP ($2.51)
CO ($1.38)
Button ($3.01)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A

, K

3 folds, Button calls $0.02, Hero bets $0.08, BB calls $0.06, Button calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.25) 7

, A

, 3

(3 players)
Hero ??

I'm curious about a value-bet here, because are we really getting enough worse hands to call with such a dry flop?

Hand 3

No read on villain at all, he joined right before this hand, and left right after it -_-

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

UTG+1 ($2.11)
MP1 ($0.77)
MP2 ($4.59)
CO ($3.22)
Button ($3.26)
SB ($0.49)
Hero (BB) ($2)
UTG ($1.47)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3

, 4

1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.02, CO calls $0.02, 1 fold, SB calls $0.01, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.10) 2

, A

, 5

(5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.06, 3 folds, SB calls $0.06

Turn: ($0.22) 9

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($0.22) 6

(2 players)
SB bets $0.41 (All-In), Hero calls $0.41

Total pot: $1.04 | Rake: $0.05

I'm pretty sure i didn't play this right, but the thought of him having a flush muddled my head a bit

Hand 4
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

UTG+1 ($5.04)
MP1 ($3.03)
MP2 ($3.44)
CO ($2.33)
Button ($2.51)
SB ($1.58)
Hero (BB) ($2)
UTG ($1.71)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9

, 10

1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02, 1 fold, CO calls $0.02, 1 fold, SB calls $0.01, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.10) 9

, 8

, Q

(5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, CO checks

Turn: ($0.10) 5

(5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, CO bets $0.02, SB calls $0.02, Hero calls $0.02, UTG+1 calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02

River: ($0.20) J

(5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.14, 4 folds

Total pot: $0.20 | Rake: $0

Another hand where I might have messed up - should I have bet with the draw on the flop?

..and finally

Hand 5

Villain is 33/8 over only 15 hands, but i'd also gotten a sort of loose 'feel' from him

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

MP2 ($4.36)
CO ($3)
Button ($3.62)
SB ($2.85)
BB ($2.51)
UTG ($1.54)
Hero (MP1) ($2.15)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q

, Q

1 fold, Hero bets $0.08, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.35, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.27

Flop: ($0.73) K

, 9

, 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.50, 1 fold

Total pot: $0.73 | Rake: $0

Standard c-bet worked here?

and that's all, thanks again to anyone who can critique me

<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds

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Muzzard

06-20-2009, 06:22 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Cheshire, UK

Posts: 1,843

1. fine

2. i'd probably make it 10c pre when isoing a limper, as you did in hand 1. cbet ldo and go from there

3. bet turn to get value from Ax hands and also Khx Qhx draws. River is a call vs some and a fold vs others, with no reads meh... I guess I call mostly - though a lot tend to overjam when they missed value on previous streets.

4. fine, though I might just bet turn like 6c

5. i'm not sure why your donking this flop? What's his 3betting range? Doesn't donking pretty much allow him to play perfectly? Are you bluffing? Value betting? what?

nish81

06-20-2009, 07:10 PM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 295

4: why would you bet turn - to build a bigger pot incase we do hit the straight?

5: i thought a donk bet is when you dont show aggression preflop but then you do bet the flop - but i did show aggression preflop, so how's this a donk bet? i put his 3bet range at QQ+, maybe AK too. I thought i was just c-betting the flop with fold equity, and hopefully getting him to fold most things apart from KK. semi-bluff i guess?

<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds

Muzzard

06-20-2009, 07:27 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Cheshire, UK

Posts: 1,843

Quote:

Originally Posted by nish81

I bet the turn sometimes not all the time. It's likely we have the best hand with the pair of 9's. Some one would bet this flop if they had Qx or better + I wouldn't want to give a free card for a 4straight or a higher pair, when it's pretty likely 9T is good.

A donk bet is when you bet into the PF raiser OOP on the flop, turn or river. You just called the 3bet, so the other person is the aggressor here. He 3bet you.

OK so if you think about it if his range is QQ+/AK what hands are folding to your cbet? There is only one combination of QQ so that is unlikely. AK has TPTK, KK has a set and AA is AA. Betting fold what % of these hands?

If he has TT/JJ or even AQ/AJ whatever, then he fold to the donk bet with AQ and AJ and maybe TT-JJ a decent % therefore we've just made all the hands we beat fold. If we check, he's probably goign to be betting this flop about 90% of the time given tha fact its K high, pretty dry and he 3bet pre. He's going to bet with air and he's going to bet with his pairs etc. It's true that c/c this flop may put is un a tricky spot on the turn and river, but sometimes you've got to make reads based tough decisions, when it's more +EV for you to check/call than it is to donk into him.

Stacks

06-20-2009, 08:24 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,605

Hand 1 [QJo] - Standard. Why do you guess that raising preflop was your mistake? How is isolaing a limper on the button with QJo a mistake? Are you assuming it's a mistake because you didn't win the hand? That doesn't mean it's a mistake. You played the hand fine.

Hand 2 [AKo] - I'd raise larger preflop. Your OOP, and have a bad button limper. I'd raise to $0.10 but that's a small difference. On the flop, this is a clear valuebet. You have the best hand a huge % of the time, and they will call with LOADS of worst hands (Ax, 7x, 88-KK, Flush draws, straight draws, etc). So I'd def bet like $0.19-$0.23 on the flop, and invite calls.

Hand 3 [43o] - I'd bet more on the flop ($0.08-pot). You should be betting the turn also looking to get the money in. Villain is shortstacked and there is plenty of worse hands that will put the money in (Ax, A5, A2, Flush draw). So bet like $0.15 on turn and shove river.

Hand 4 [T9o] - Flop is standard. You do have a gutshot draw, but that adds only a small amount of equity. If you bet there aren't many worse hands that will call, and better hands will rarely fold to only 1 bet. And if your draw comes you don't have great implied odds because your draw would be very transparent. I'd c/f to any reasonable bet on the flop/turn, especially with so many villains in the pot.

Hand 5 [QQ] - Preflop is fine. Although if you think he will stack off with worse often enough preflop, you could 4bet/call. And likewise if you think his 3betting range is uber tight, then folding would be best.

On the flop, I'd def just check/call, then check/evaluate the turn. Donking here is pretty much turning your hand into a bluff, and a poor one at that because better hands likely never fold here. I can't be considered a valuebet as you likely don't get called by worse hands often enough. I mean he could call one street with TT/JJ/TJ/9x, but that's somewhat unlikely, not to mention by checking you could get more value from those hands later.

And a note, you didn't cbet in Hand 5. A cbet is the continuation of the previous streets agression. If you the preflop aggressor, and then bet the flop, that's a cbet. Same goes for if you are the flop aggressor and bet the turn, that's a turn cbet (referred to as double barrel). Here, you are not the preflop aggressor because the villain put in the last bet/raise preflop. Therefore, your flop bet is a donk bet, which is a bet into the previous street aggressor.

Stacks

06-20-2009, 08:35 PM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,605

Quote:

Originally Posted by nish81

i put his 3bet range at QQ+, maybe AK too. I thought i was just c-betting the flop with fold equity, and hopefully getting him to fold most things apart from KK. semi-bluff i guess?

You've mentioned betting with fold equity a few times in recent posts. While fold equity is a large part of poker, in situations like this you aren't really relying on fold equity. Yes, you might have some fold equity, meaning villain will fold some % of the time, but with a hand like KK on Ahi board, or QQ on Khi board, we aren't betting because of fold equity. Because the hands villains fold are hands that we are ahead of in most instances.

Say we play the QQ hand in this manner. Betting the flop is incorrect as a value bet because we don't have >50% equity against his calling range, meaning we don't get called by worse often enough. Betting the flop as a bluff is absurd because the hands villain folds is hands we beat. So while we do have fold equity, him folding worse hands is not the best outcome. We'd be better off checking and letting him bet those worse hands.

littleogre

06-20-2009, 08:55 PM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,344

littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past

In hand 1 i'm not sure we need to c-bet bluff with 2 people in the pot. Everything else about the hand looks fine. Hand 2 you must bet but fold if he reraises. Hand 3 bet turn don't be scared and assume he has a flush. Hand 4 is ok but i would take a stab on the turn . On hand 5 you should shove over his 3-bet. Assuming you are above his 3-betting range. Since you just called i would give him a chance to bluff again. Leading out is bad. not many worse hands are calling

nish81

06-20-2009, 10:24 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 295

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muzzard

Ah, I understand now. Got to start analysing more and thinking more in terms of EV/hand ranges in these sorts of situations - it's harder when I'm actually playing. Thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

I thought it was a mistake because I didn't think QJo was a good enough hand to raise preflop from the button, or maybe even play preflop altogether. (have to admit that I'm going a lot by renton's preflop strategy thread with that statement though).

Quote:

Hand 2 [AKo] - I'd raise larger preflop. Your OOP, and have a bad button limper. I'd raise to $0.10 but that's a small difference. On the flop, this is a clear valuebet. You have the best hand a huge % of the time, and they will call with LOADS of worst hands (Ax, 7x, 88-KK, Flush draws, straight draws, etc). So I'd def bet like $0.19-$0.23 on the flop, and invite calls.

I did end up value-betting the flop, for $0.18, and they all folded. But as long as it was the +ev move.

Quote:

Hand 3 [43o] - I'd bet more on the flop ($0.08-pot). You should be betting the turn also looking to get the money in. Villain is shortstacked and there is plenty of worse hands that will put the money in (Ax, A5, A2, Flush draw). So bet like $0.15 on turn and shove river.

Got it, thanks. I suddenly got worried at whether I was facing a guy with a flush, but I have to stop letting emotions affect my playing as much >_<

Quote:

Hand 4 [T9o] - Flop is standard. You do have a gutshot draw, but that adds only a small amount of equity. If you bet there aren't many worse hands that will call, and better hands will rarely fold to only 1 bet. And if your draw comes you don't have great implied odds because your draw would be very transparent. I'd c/f to any reasonable bet on the flop/turn, especially with so many villains in the pot.

Hand 5 [QQ] - Preflop is fine. Although if you think he will stack off with worse often enough preflop, you could 4bet/call. And likewise if you think his 3betting range is uber tight, then folding would be best.

On the flop, I'd def just check/call, then check/evaluate the turn. Donking here is pretty much turning your hand into a bluff, and a poor one at that because better hands likely never fold here. I can't be considered a valuebet as you likely don't get called by worse hands often enough. I mean he could call one street with TT/JJ/TJ/9x, but that's somewhat unlikely, not to mention by checking you could get more value from those hands later.

And a note, you didn't cbet in Hand 5. A cbet is the continuation of the previous streets agression. If you the preflop aggressor, and then bet the flop, that's a cbet. Same goes for if you are the flop aggressor and bet the turn, that's a turn cbet (referred to as double barrel). Here, you are not the preflop aggressor because the villain put in the last bet/raise preflop. Therefore, your flop bet is a donk bet, which is a bet into the previous street aggressor.

Right, got it. Guess I lucked out in the fifth hand then, got to make sure it doesn't happen again

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Ah I see. A big part of my thinking here was based on the asssumption that I was c-betting here, but as you've pointed out to me, that isn't/wasn't the case. Not that adding a name would change the ev of this move though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

1; isn't a c-bet almost always standard with a HU flop and a missed hand?
2; I did end up betting (he folded)
3; yeah, I should stop listening to my worry
4; cool
5; I didn't think i was above his 3-betting range enough to do that. but you're right, i should have checked to him

<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds

littleogre

06-20-2009, 10:51 PM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,344

sorry i misread hand 1 for some reason i thought 2 people saw the flop with you.

06-21-2009, 12:16 AM

#10 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

hand 1: perfect
hand 2: gutshots, flush draws, worse aces pay you off maybe, and if they don't why would you give them 4 or 5 outs?
hand 3: I'd bet the turn for value
hand 4: I generally bet turn as a semi-bluff (and sometimes you get a draw calling)
hand 5: c/c flop? you can't cbet if you weren't the pf aggressor
you're not the pf aggressor anymore because you showed weakness by checking
so preflop I like, flop I dislike

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five 2NL hands for evaluation

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