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Thunder
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02-19-2008, 07:31 PM
Post subject: First To Act - Bet!
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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I have read many articles, espousing the mantra of "bet or fold - never call" and they state that when first to voluntarily put money in the pot, raise. The reasons behind this all sound well and good but have recently got me thinking.
When the blinds I low, I like to do a lot of speculating with hands I won't be able to later, the suited connectors, gapped connectors and small pairs etc. Yet to raise with any of these in early or mid position is quite folly because they don't really stand up to a reraise and I have been advised that it's best to just limp. As a result, I wonder about the bet or fold mentality that is so popular.
I am takling primariily from a tourney perspective but would also appreciate thoughts on cash as well.
Thx
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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I am no expert, with my limited experience as a donk noob, I tend to limp in with speculative hands early in SNG tourneys where I know the blinds are almost nothing, level 1 or level 2 blinds, 15/30 or 20/40 when my stack is still 1000 or better. I do realize that it may be spewing chips, but if I'm in middle to late position with no raisers in front, it is a chance to hit the flop hard... probably a leak for me though.
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Jibalob
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Out of my roll
Posts: 512
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The easy solution is to never *open* with speculative hands in early position. You really don't want to be playing draws out of position postflop anyway.
Suited connectors should only really be played following limpers in late position unless you have good reason to do otherwise. Pairs are much easier to play out of position and will also stand up to preflop raises and postflop aggression
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/q...-no-limit.html
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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I hate giving hand charts because I think there's a risk that people rote learn them without understanding the reasoning behind them, but from early position (say UTG, UTG+1 and MP1) with low blinds on a full 1-table SNG I only play the following hands:
- JJ-AA: standard raise
- AK/AQ: standard raise
- 22-TT: limp and call a raise if I have implied odds (ie. I can win ~15x or more chips than I have to call)
Everything else is almost always in the bin. This include all SCs, suited gappers, suited aces etc.
The thing about 1-table SNGs is that a lot of your edge comes from being able to play correct push/fold poker when blinds are high, and by leaking away chips with speculative hands from OOP early in the tourney you decrease your fold equity later in the game (and also decrease the amount of chips you can win if you double up with a push).
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Unibomber14
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02-19-2008, 09:05 PM
Post subject: Re: First To Act - Bet!
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#6 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The future
Posts: 321
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
Yet to raise with any of these in early or mid position is quite folly because they don't really stand up to a reraise and I have been advised that it's best to just limp.
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So we don't raise for fear of a reraise..., but we limp without fear of a raise? Are you calling a middle position, 3x raise, during the beginning stages of a SnG, OOP, with 89s? If two or three limp behind, and you flop second pair, what do you do? check/call, bet/fold? What about the turn? Can you get any real useful information from a field full of limpers?
Why make your decisions so tough is all I'm getting at.
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"$80 million Submarine mansion. Think about it."
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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In an STT its rarely right to limp speculative hands (I assume you mean stuff like SC's). In an MTT it can be worth the risk though. This is because in STTs we're playing a short stacked game and chip conservation is a key goal, whereas in MTTs we need to accumulate chips so its worth the risk of losing some playing speculative hands.
Its rarely right to take a piece of general advice and apply it to all situations.
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Just playing to improve.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
Its rarely right to take a piece of general advice and apply it to all situations.
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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Thx for the link, I will check it out.
"Suited connectors should only really be played following limpers" - why is this the case, following other limpers? Is it to do with getting pot odds?
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
"Suited connectors should only really be played following limpers" - why is this the case, following other limpers? Is it to do with getting pot odds?
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As I see it, in a 1-table SNG context there are a couple of reasons:
- Implied odds. When you play SCs, you want to flop something really big (two pair, trips, straight, flush or monster draw). If you have T9s you do NOT want to lose a lot of chips on a T52 rainbow flop! Flopping something big doesn't happen all that often so you want to be able to see the flop cheaply. The more chips you have to pay to see the flop, the worse your implied odds are.
- Number of players to act after you. If you limp UTG on a full table, there are 8 players to act after you, any of whom could raise, worsening your implied odds. If you're on the button and there are 3 limpers in front, there are only two more players who could raise. Plus if there are limpers in front, your implied odds are better and you have position postflop.
This is why, at least in a 1-table SNG context, I usually only play SCs in the CO or on the Button with 2+ limpers in front in the first 3 levels only (up to 25/50 blinds). Even at 25/50 I need a read that the blinds are relatively passive and won't raise over limpers to steal the dead chips.
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gabe
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02-20-2008, 11:38 PM
Post subject: Re: First To Act - Bet!
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#11 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
Yet to raise with any of these in early or mid position is quite folly because they don't really stand up to a reraise
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its not so much because they cant stand a reraise, but because you are in bad position once the flop comes. its hard enough to play anything out of position, let alone small cards. in position they are great because you can get a good idea of what everyone has and how much they'll pay you off (or how much they should fold when you dont hit a hand)
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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Thx Tai and Gabe, both points I was thinking about (though didn't express fully)
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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You should start thinking about how much your actually getting reraised when you raise at the stakes you play.
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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All good advice... thanks guys. Now if I can just figure out how to battle that overaggressive donk who somehow keeps sucking out on everyone...
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Monty3038
All good advice... thanks guys. Now if I can just figure out how to battle that overaggressive donk who somehow keeps sucking out on everyone...
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Don't sit on his right.
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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Thanks... I play SNGs mostly... so I don't get a choice.
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