Originally Posted by rowhousepd

On the flop I have A K, there are 3 other opponents, and the board is K 8 3. With TPTK, no draws, and a safe board, it's not surprising that my equity is (apparently) 70% w/ the three other villains at 10%.

Originally Posted by rowhousepd

On the flop I have A K, there are 3 other opponents, and the board is K 8 3. With TPTK, no draws, and a safe board, it's not surprising that my equity is (apparently) 70% w/ the three other villains at 10%.

Originally Posted by JKDS

Your equity is determined by how many hands you beat, how often you hold, how many hands we lose too, and how often we catch up.

Its 2 handed on the same K83r flop. We hold AK and shove the flop. Villain calls with exactly KQ, 88, and 33. What is our equity against that range? WHY???? Ignore fold equity.

Originally Posted by supahaole

I know we don't have enough info but why are giving villain such a narrow range. @ 2nl (don't know ops stakes) QQ, JJ, is almost always continuing and TT, 99, AQ, AJ, are gonna stick around enough to exploit them too.

But I think ops original question is being over looked. JKDS gave a great explanation of what equity is but how do we do that on the fly? I still think that practice with a tool like pokerstove is the best way to get comfortable with understanding our equity vs any given range. No?

Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13

Wow seems to me everybody is busy patting themselfs on the back for pointing out that he doesn't have his opponent on a range. The example is just an example. So the answer would be something like "Well first we put our opponent on a range. Then we figure out how often we get beat.............."

Rowhouse I wish I had the answer for you but I don't. Hopefully Spoon or somebody who actually knows will jump in soon and give you the math.

Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13

Wow seems to me everybody is busy patting themselfs on the back for pointing out that he doesn't have his opponent on a range.

Originally Posted by supahaole

...I think ops original question is being over looked. JKDS gave a great explanation of what equity is but how do we do that on the fly? I still think that practice with a tool like pokerstove is the best way to get comfortable with understanding our equity vs any given range. No?

Originally Posted by JKDS

Ya, pokerstoving things alot will get u a good feel...but only if you really understand why pokerstove says what it says. If you do understand, and you know your equity against every possible hand, then you can easily determine what your equity is without needing pokerstove if you really wanted to. Honestly, i dont really ever care what my equity is...and i rather just know that im beating so and so in villains range and behind so and so and hes folding so and so and raising so and so etc.

Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13

Point(s) well taken! I should have read deeper my sincere apology!

Originally Posted by supahaole

Graciously accepted.

@JKDS- Got any popcorn left?

Originally Posted by JKDS

Its 2 handed on the same K83r flop. We hold AK and shove the flop. Villain calls with exactly KQ, 88, and 33. What is our equity against that range? WHY???? Ignore fold equity.

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

I still don't see how you got 70% without telling us the villains' ranges

Originally Posted by JKDS

@nightgizmo: yup thats exactly why. KQ will suck out about 12% of the time, and we'll almost never improve against 33 or 88. So really its 8*88% : 6+8*12% which is about 50%:50%

Originally Posted by supahaole

But I think ops original question is being over looked. JKDS gave a great explanation of what equity is but how do we do that on the fly? I still think that practice with a tool like pokerstove is the best way to get comfortable with understanding our equity vs any given range. No?

Originally Posted by rowhousepd

This 70% from Stove assume 3 opponents play any random cards to the showdown -- which I do realize is what's going to happen very often. I put in random bc I was using a theoretical scenario where I have no reads on the villains and assume I could be up against anything. Remember, I was asking a hypothetical mathy question rather than one where you're reading players, etc.

Originally Posted by Tasha

So what happens during live games? Do the top players know hundreds of equity values from memory or is equity not used as much when making decisions?

Originally Posted by Tasha

So what happens during live games? Do the top players know hundreds of equity values from memory or is equity not used as much when making decisions?

Originally Posted by bhaley66

I would assume that top players in live games, don't necessarily have to know equity values, but would think that they are putting their opponents on ranges, and comparing their strength to their ranges; i.e. how many combinations in their opponents ranges do they beat/how many of their opponents hands are strong drawing hands, etc?

Originally Posted by bhaley66

I would assume that top players in live games, don't necessarily have to know equity values, but would think that they are putting their opponents on ranges, and comparing their strength to their ranges; i.e. how many combinations in their opponents ranges do they beat/how many of their opponents hands are strong drawing hands, etc?

Originally Posted by Tasha

So what happens during live games? Do the top players know hundreds of equity values from memory or is equity not used as much when making decisions?

Originally Posted by rowhousepd

This 70% from Stove assume 3 opponents play any random cards to the showdown -- which I do realize is what's going to happen very often

Originally Posted by JKDS

Im pretty stumped on how to quickly respond and change your thinking via a forum post alone.
....
this isnt great thinking.

Originally Posted by NightGizmo

Also -- please erase from your memory the erroneous thought that "TPTK has 70% equity vs 3 opponents". You will never use that in any at-the-table calculation ever.
....
Instead, you will use the same process you always use: figure out a range and then calculate equity. The only difference is that at the table, you use mental shortcuts to estimate your equity.

Originally Posted by Penneywize

"70% assumes 3 opponents play any random to showdown and that's whats going to happen very often". Seriously? Do you think this is true?

Originally Posted by Belt

So, there are 21 combos in his range, 8.5 of them beat you and you beat 12.5.
Your equity is 12.5/21 =~ 60%

Originally Posted by rowhousepd

So once you narrow down the hands in the villain's range, you think about the math in terms of combos?

Originally Posted by rowhousepd

From what most of you guys said, it sounds like if the villain's range contains hands that, for the most part, the hero is a big favorite over, the equity is high. But when his range consists largely of hands that crush the hero, the equity is probably bad. Is this more or less accurate?

Originally Posted by Belt

I want to simplify your example and calculate the equity only against one opponent for you to get a feel of it. Rest is up to you...

Here is how I do it at the table if needed:

First you have to have a range for your opponent. Say you bet the flop and got raised, and you put him on QQ, 88, 33, KQ, K8s.

QQ -> 6 combos (he needs another Q to win, his equity is ~9%, 0.5 combo beat you, you beat 5.5)
88 -> 3 combos (you have almost 0 equity, 3 combos beat you, you beat 0)
33 -> 3 combos (you have almost 0 equity, 3 combos beat you, you beat 0)
KQ -> 8 combos (he needs a Q to win, his equity is ~13%, 1 combo beats you, you beat 7)
K8 -> 1 combo (you need an A to win, your equity is ~13%, given that this is a tiny part of his range, we can ignore this 13%, 1 combo beats you, you beat 0)

So, there are 21 commbos in his range, 8.5 of them beat you and you beat 12.5.
Your equity is 12.5/21 =~ 60%

And if we put it in stove:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
20,790 games 0.040 secs 519,750 games/sec
Board: Kd 8c 3s
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 60.055% 59.81% 00.24% 12435 50.50 { AhKh }
Hand 1: 39.945% 39.70% 00.24% 8254 50.50 { QQ, 88, 33, KQs, K8s, KQo }

Originally Posted by ryan4h

Can you please tell me how you figured out the equity? I understand how you got the combinations, but not how you figured out equity. Thanks.