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A few reasons why I'm a losing player

  
 
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pankfish
Old 10-20-2007, 08:23 PM     Post subject: A few reasons why I'm a losing player #1 (permalink)  
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1) I pay off way more than other people pay me off. Well, now that I think about it this is probably the only reason. [note to self, two pair is not a hand you want to call a shove with]

2) I only use odds for calling when I'm on a draw, but not to bet when I think others are on a draw. Probably because I don't give my opponents credit for knowing if they are getting odds or not, or credit for caring about the odds. Well, they are beating me so maybe I should start giving too much credit.

3) Due to bad beats I've been on the losing side of, I don't put a lot of confidence in my reads. If I raise 4-5x bb preflop or 3 bet 3x the original raiser, should I be scared of a straight draw when I flop a set?

4) Beer

5) I'll continually donk chips into a player who is outplaying me left and right for hours, however I get nervous about playing pots against players I've been beating.

6) I switch between fr/6max/limit/nl/pl omaha/cash/sng/mtt, sucking at many different games is not > being decent at one.

7) Black cloud, god hates me, yadda yadda


Is this thread helpful? I say yes, now you all know who to look for at the tables if you want free chips.
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Jack Sawyer
Old 10-20-2007, 08:32 PM #2 (permalink)  
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TLR
Old 10-21-2007, 04:48 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 Knowing is 1/2 the battle.

1. Stick to one game for now, learn to play it well
2. Dont drink and gamble
3. Post a lot of hands here, be ready to accept criticizm
4. Realize when you are on tilt and stop playing


 
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biondino
Old 10-21-2007, 05:13 PM     Post subject: Re: A few reasons why I'm a losing player #4 (permalink)  
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A pretty self-aware post, deserves applauding. Many of your points require no comment, but some of the others do. I am assuming you're playing 25nl or lower, so that's what I have in mind when responding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pankfish
1) I pay off way more than other people pay me off. Well, now that I think about it this is probably the only reason. [note to self, two pair is not a hand you want to call a shove with]
It's great you realise this, and I'm sure your reading plus your experience is giving you the weapons you need to counter the problem. Don't be afraid to fold when you're not confident in your hand, especially out of position. Don't feel obliged to be hyper-aggressive at all times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pankfish
2) I only use odds for calling when I'm on a draw, but not to bet when I think others are on a draw. Probably because I don't give my opponents credit for knowing if they are getting odds or not, or credit for caring about the odds. Well, they are beating me so maybe I should start giving too much credit.
Thing is, you win either way. If you don't give odds to drawing players, you win (in the long term) whether they fold or whether they call, as long as you don't pay them off too often when these draws hit. Betting when you're ahead is ALWAYS +EV, especially when you're up against calling stations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pankfish
5) I'll continually donk chips into a player who is outplaying me left and right for hours, however I get nervous about playing pots against players I've been beating.
By which you mean you're afraid to lose your winnings against players you know you should be beating? It's a pretty common feeling but you know it makes no sense in a poker context - you just need to keep reminding yourself of the fact. Having said that, if you do find you're playing scared, and can't change your mindset, knowing that it's time to quit remains a useful thing.

As to the player outplaying you - if he's *really* better than you then move table. If he's a lucky or maniacal lagg who is beating you by constantly driving you out of the pot (and then holding AA the one time you push back), then as long as you have position you should be able to tailor your game to take the money back - and this doesn't necessarily mean playing much looser than you normally would.
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badgers
Old 10-21-2007, 06:20 PM     Post subject: Re: A few reasons why I'm a losing player #5 (permalink)  
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Really good post, looks like you're going the right way to sort out your leaks. You've got some good replies so far, but I feel that this needs to be addressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pankfish
3) Due to bad beats I've been on the losing side of, I don't put a lot of confidence in my reads. If I raise 4-5x bb preflop or 3 bet 3x the original raiser, should I be scared of a straight draw when I flop a set?
Obviously the answer is no. Just because you were outdrawn before doesn't mean you are going to again. Get it in with the best hand plz.

Oh and don't play while drunk unless for a tiny portion of your roll.
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Robb
Old 10-22-2007, 09:35 PM     Post subject: Re: A few reasons why I'm a losing player #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pankfish
3) Due to bad beats I've been on the losing side of, I don't put a lot of confidence in my reads. If I raise 4-5x bb preflop or 3 bet 3x the original raiser, should I be scared of a straight draw when I flop a set?
Better players get sucked out on more often than their opponents. Why? Let's suppose you get your money GOOD in four times as often as you get it in bad. Then you have a lot more opportunities to suffer a bad beat.

If the beats are truly bad, i.e. you got your money in when ahead, keep firing away. Just make sure you're not giving your opponents odds to chase, and the bad beats will take care of themselves.

The bad beats I worry about most are the ones like last night, where I got it all in with AA on the flop against a set of sixes. I hit an Ace on the turn for stacks, but that was a crappy play. Upon reflection, he played it EXACTLY like you would expect someone with a set to play it, and he wasn't a donk. I made the donkey play. Those are the bad beats I'm trying to fix.
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sejje
Old 10-23-2007, 01:55 AM     Post subject: Re: A few reasons why I'm a losing player #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pankfish
3) Due to bad beats I've been on the losing side of, I don't put a lot of confidence in my reads. If I raise 4-5x bb preflop or 3 bet 3x the original raiser, should I be scared of a straight draw when I flop a set?
Should any hand be "scared" of a straight draw? Stoopid question. But 4-5x is a standard raise, and lots of good players can play a TON of hands that flop a straight draw. Hopefully you can play your set well enough to win money from these hands, as it's extremely easy.
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pankfish
Old 10-23-2007, 04:37 AM     Post subject: Re: A few reasons why I'm a losing player #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sejje
Quote:
Originally Posted by pankfish
3) Due to bad beats I've been on the losing side of, I don't put a lot of confidence in my reads. If I raise 4-5x bb preflop or 3 bet 3x the original raiser, should I be scared of a straight draw when I flop a set?
Should any hand be "scared" of a straight draw? Stoopid question. But 4-5x is a standard raise, and lots of good players can play a TON of hands that flop a straight draw. Hopefully you can play your set well enough to win money from these hands, as it's extremely easy.


I'm just now starting to get poker a little bit from reading through these forums. My biggest problem probably isn't paying off people with better hands as much as it is getting paid off when I have the nuts. I rarely stack anyone because I try and slow play with the nuts hoping they can hit something on later streets that will make it worth it to them to go crazy betting. I need to make better bets when ahead to make it easier to get the stacks all in by the river if they make something. If they fold then so be it, but I'm definitely not getting max value on my big hands.

I've been playing a variety of games. I'm probably stronger compared to my competition in Omaha and stud right now, but I'll probably go back to full time hold em sometime this week and really work on my leaks.

Another reason I suck is because I can never bring myself to look at poker tracker after a losing session. This is something I'm going to start doing. I didn't pay 50 bucks or whatever to bask in my own glory after a decent session, I have to use it to get better.

Thanks for the replies guys.
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grnydrowave2
Old 10-23-2007, 05:40 AM     Post subject: Re: A few reasons why I'm a losing player #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pankfish
Another reason I suck is because I can never bring myself to look at poker tracker after a losing session. This is something I'm going to start doing. I didn't pay 50 bucks or whatever to bask in my own glory after a decent session, I have to use it to get better.

Thanks for the replies guys.
You should review your hands in PT after every session, win or lose. It's not the result that matters, it's how you played.

However, I do sometimes like to wait about a week or so before reviewing hands so I can look at them objectively with fresh eyes. This works best when you don't remember having played the hands. Run them through the playback application and review it step by step. When the action gets to you, STOP and ask yourself what you think the best decision is. Then continue through the hand and see how it played out.

You might be surprised how badly you played some of your hands, even winning ones. Conversely, you might eventually find that you didn't make any major mistakes in any of the big pots you played in. This can be very satisfying and build confidence, even if you hit a big cooler and dropped some buy-ins. If you don't know what you should have done in a particular spot, post the hand here at FTR. There are lots of nice, helpful people here to set you straight.

Just spending 5 or 10 minutes a day doing this can improve your game by leaps and bounds. In my opinion, it's one the most efficient ways to spend your time thinking about poker.
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Robb
Old 10-23-2007, 12:24 PM     Post subject: Re: A few reasons why I'm a losing player #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pankfish
My biggest problem probably isn't paying off people with better hands as much as it is getting paid off when I have the nuts. I rarely stack anyone because I try and slow play with the nuts hoping they can hit something on later streets that will make it worth it to them to go crazy betting. I need to make better bets when ahead to make it easier to get the stacks all in by the river if they make something. If they fold then so be it, but I'm definitely not getting max value on my big hands.
I forget where I read it, perhaps Steve Badger? He made the point that you're likeliest to make a HUGE winning hand when you're closest to losing. Example, you make a straight on the turn against a set. There are 9 outs to the full house for your opponent, and the guy has a big made hand. The problem with getting paid off with big hands is that someone else has to have a slightly worse big hand they're willing to gamble with. It's the gap between the two hands that makes it possible to stack someone, and smaller is better. That's (imo) why poker takes so long to learn. You have to play the big hands well, and take down big pots with two pair, sets and non-nut flushes. And since there's a HUGE margin of error, you have to take the beats philosophically and learn from them, not jones over them.

Don't worry too much about not getting paid off with a stack every time you make a big hand. Sometimes, you're just so far ahead that no one will call you down. And if they've got bottom pair - bad kicker, it's difficult to induce a bluff.
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taipan168
Old 10-23-2007, 12:59 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Realising that you're a losing player and identifying the reasons why are the first steps to becoming a winning player. Well done!
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Robb
Old 10-23-2007, 01:29 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taipan168
Realising that you're a losing player and identifying the reasons why are the first steps to becoming a winning player. Well done!
I spent a long time in denial about how badly I was playing. When I started identifying and plugging leaks, it was a revelation. It took very little time to become a winning player once I began using PT stats and working at it. What's amazing is how plugging just a couple BIG leaks generally can get you into the winning column. Then you can start working on smaller leaks. That's the fun part, when you're winning and just working to improve your win-rate. Good job. Keep up the work!
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pankfish
Old 10-24-2007, 03:00 AM #13 (permalink)  
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What do you guys think about this hand? I'm up a buy in. Villain is pretty lose, but only raises about 3 percent of his hands so I can't give him a flush on the flop. He is definitely playing a pair here with his preflop action. The turn gives me the second nuts, I probably should have bet here. I doubt he folds.

The river card scares the crap out of me. But no way I fold to this bet, right? Not after the I called the flop re-raise anyway. (which I guess was an awful call, but not betting the turn is probably worse.)




PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($11.17)
Button ($5.73)
SB ($9.88)
BB ($6.87)
UTG ($1.97)
MP ($8.93)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q.
1 fold, MP raises to $0.2, Hero raises to $0.45, 3 folds, MP calls $0.25.

Flop: ($0.97) 3, 4, J




(2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.6, MP raises to $1.8, Hero calls $1.20.

Turn: ($4.57) A (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks.

River: ($4.57) 3 (2 players)
MP bets $2, Hero calls $2.

Final Pot: $8.57
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Robb
Old 10-24-2007, 04:21 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 Bet the turn, shove the river.
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IPlayTight
Old 10-24-2007, 04:38 AM #15 (permalink)  

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i dont think that 3 on the river should scare you at all. He isnt gonna check raise a set or two pair when the board is all of the same suit. Im guessing hes got the flush, but its weak and that ace scared him only because he wouldnt bother check raising again on the turn. On the river, i think he figures his weak flush is good since you didnt bet the ace, and if i am correct you should raise him just enough so that he cant fold his losing flush.
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biondino
Old 10-24-2007, 01:41 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Bet the tits out of the turn. If he has a set he'll struggle to lay it down, and will be priced in ion the river. If he has 33 or 44 (or Kxh) then you're very unlucky I suspect.
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pankfish
Old 10-25-2007, 12:35 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biondino
Bet the tits out of the turn. If he has a set he'll struggle to lay it down, and will be priced in ion the river. If he has 33 or 44 (or Kxh) then you're very unlucky I suspect.
definitely doesn't have 33 or 44. He is very passive, him raising preflop means he has at least 10-10. JJ is another likely hand, I would expect him to fire over the top on my three bet preflop with KK. King of hearts could be in his hand, but I already took him off kings. Only thing he drew the flush with here would be AK suited and I've already seen the ace of hearts. I really thought I was ahead on the turn, but the 2 dollar bet on the river looks a lot like a value bet.

Looking back at this hand I think I take it down pretty easy if I raise again on the flop, pot the turn, river I'm just calling. I don't think shoving accomplishes much on a 4 flush board. Only thing that calls me is the king of hearts or a boat.

Am I right? How does he call a shove with the 10 of hearts?
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