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A Few 10nl Hands from tonight

  
 
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TheScientist23
Old 12-21-2008, 07:25 AM     Post subject: A Few 10nl Hands from tonight #1 (permalink)  
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Tonight was a loosing night. So have the last few. I guess I'm on somewhat of a downswing, so I felt like I should start putting more effort into correcting mistakes because they are costing me more right now. Having said that, not all the hands below are necessarily loosing hands, just ones that I was unsure of.


HAND 1
MP3 ($2.20)
CO ($0.60)
Button ($5.95)
SB ($10)
BB ($9.35)
UTG ($24.05)
Hero (UTG+1) ($8.40)
MP1 ($8.90)
MP2 ($4.65)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q, A
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.40, MP1 calls $0.40, 6 folds

Flop: ($0.95) 2, 3, A (2 players)
Hero bets $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50

Turn: ($1.95) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $2, MP1 calls $2

River: ($5.95) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $5.50 (All-In)


HAND 2
MP3 ($4)
CO ($1.85)
Button ($2.65)
SB ($5.95)
BB ($10)
UTG ($9.70)
Hero (UTG+1) ($8.25)
MP1 ($9.70)
MP2 ($4.10)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K, A
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.45, 4 folds, Button calls $0.45, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.05) 8, Q, J (2 players)
Hero bets $2.20 (putting him all-in)


HAND 3
UTG ($1.80)
UTG+1 ($15.85)
MP1 ($5.05)
MP2 ($0.95)
MP3 ($2.05)
CO ($3.30)
Hero (Button) ($5)
SB ($2)
BB ($2.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, A
UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, SB raises to $2 (All-In), 3 folds, Hero...
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bigspenda73
Old 12-21-2008, 07:47 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1 flop bet is too small for a drawy board

hand 2 I'd either bet/call, c/f, or c/r, in that order

hand 3 WHY SO SERIOUS?
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xptboy
Old 12-21-2008, 07:57 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Hand 1: bet bigger on the flop, whats is your reasonning for shoving river? Was he a calling station who would call with midpair?

Hand 2: I'd c/f or do exactly what u did

Hand 3: easy call
 
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TheScientist23
Old 12-21-2008, 06:38 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Hand 1:
I didn't think he would call the pre-flop raise with anything that would complete the straight. I was going to stand down a little if another spade came up. I shoved the river because I figured he had Ax and was going to call after putting in that much money already. No flush possibility, and the only straight draw wasn't in his range for calling the PFR.

Hand 2:
So you wouldn't put him all-in? what if I made a small c-bet then he pushed? I guess my thought was bet hoping he would fold, but if he calls I had a good draw hand with 2 overs and the straight possibility and wouldn't need to worry about calling another bet because it was all in the middle already.

Hand 3:
The only reason I hesitated with this was because he was a semi-tight player and I still don't like stacking off pre-flop with AK. Even after 8K hands AK all-in pre-flop with me doesn't have a good track record.
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bigspenda73
Old 12-21-2008, 07:47 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 he a 20bb stack at $10nl, either you don't have pokerstove and haven't yet learned about pot odds or you're just making results-oriented posts.
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xptboy
Old 12-21-2008, 07:56 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Hand 1: Your reason for shoving the river still eludes me.
The only possible hands he will call with that you beat are AJ and AT and even AT he might fold, hell he might not even call AJ unless he's a calling station.
AK, A9, A8, A3, A2, 22, 33, 88, 99 all beat you and all those hands are in his range. If you look at it properly, you shove and you only get called by better whilst you fold out all hands that are worse apart from perhaps AJ which is 1 hand and very unlikely.
 
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TheScientist23
Old 12-21-2008, 08:32 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Spenda, I have pokerstove, but I was unaware that you could factor in stack sizes with that. This guy was pretty tight (5.73/5.21 over 200+ hands) so even if he 3 bets with his full raise range, I'm on the loosing end of a coinflip. If he only 3-bets, say 3% of his range, its 2/3 that I lose. I guess since it's a short stack and I've already put some in that its not such a big deal. Against a bigger stack I would definitely want to reconsider though, right?

Xpt, Ok, yeah pushing was probably a pretty stupid thing to do there... haha I wasn't thinking very hard about this one.
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bigspenda73
Old 12-21-2008, 08:37 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 Please start including your reads in your original post, it will help us make decisions. Still doesn't matter in this case.
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AFchung
Old 12-22-2008, 01:25 AM #9 (permalink)  
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hand 1 - bet flop way bigger, and dont need to shove river here. c/c would've been better than shove imo

hand 2 - fine i guess. you have two overs, inside straight draw, and FE against small PPs

hand 3 - snap fist pump call
http://afchung.blogspot.com/
 
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Ragnar4
Old 12-22-2008, 02:38 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Here's the problem the scientist.

When you have less and less money, the range that you're willing to get it in with gets bigger and bigger.

You have to call 1.50 to win 2.35
You are getting 1.56-1 on your call. Against Aces you're in a lot of trouble. Against Kings, you're just a shade under even.

But this guy is shoving Any Ace big, any PP, and quite possibly any two wheelhouse cards cuz he has such a small stack.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

2,650,646,592 games 2.015 secs 1,315,457,365 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.535% 50.37% 04.17% 1335096000 110425440.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 45.465% 41.30% 04.17% 1094699712 110425440.00 { 22+, ATs+, KQs, ATo+, KQo }

That's a very modest representation of his range. Since you're getting 1.5666-1 on your money, and a 54%, you are getting overlay of like 9%.

Which means with his range here, every dollar that goes into the pot gives you .09 sklansky dollars. Which is a measure of how much money you make when you make your decisions, win or lose.

Don't just P-Stove the hand that got all the money in the center versus the hand that you have, p-stove every possible combination, and see whether you're the favorite there. In this case... you are.

I hope this explains it.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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bigspenda73
Old 12-22-2008, 03:40 AM #11 (permalink)  
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 looks like it's $1.50 to win $2.80
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HarleyGuy13
Old 12-22-2008, 03:49 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 Haven't read all the others so hope I'm not an idiot.

1.) Raise after the flop is to small. I would have made it more like .80 or even pot. After the turn unless you think he was a total tard and came in with 45 then I think that is where I would have shoved...IMO

2.) I think after you don't hit it you should be done rather than risk it all. Fold and move onto a hand where you can make some money.

3.) Kinda like two unless you have some history on villian. If he's playing real loose like 55+ VPIP then why risk it?

Just my two cents now I'll see how bad I muffed it.
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The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."

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wellrounded08
Old 12-22-2008, 04:06 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xptboy
Hand 1: Your reason for shoving the river still eludes me.
The only possible hands he will call with that you beat are AJ and AT and even AT he might fold, hell he might not even call AJ unless he's a calling station.
AK, A9, A8, A3, A2, 22, 33, 88, 99 all beat you and all those hands are in his range. If you look at it properly, you shove and you only get called by better whilst you fold out all hands that are worse apart from perhaps AJ which is 1 hand and very unlikely.

That is wrongo-bongo. If it's a reg. I don't get it in, if it's an unknown, I LOVE the line: pot-pot-showvES <<<EDIT: Assuming no spade falls.

But what the hell do I know rite?
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wellrounded08
Old 12-22-2008, 04:10 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13
Haven't read all the others so hope I'm not an idiot.

1.) Raise after the flop is to small. I would have made it more like .80 or even pot. After the turn unless you think he was a total tard and came in with 45 then I think that is where I would have shoved...IMO
I see what ur saying but I was just thinking, If he is a total tard that comes in with any 45, then he is a total tard that calls down three streets with any ace and even worse. Just something to think about.
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xptboy
Old 12-22-2008, 08:31 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wellrounded08
Quote:
Originally Posted by xptboy
Hand 1: Your reason for shoving the river still eludes me.
The only possible hands he will call with that you beat are AJ and AT and even AT he might fold, hell he might not even call AJ unless he's a calling station.
AK, A9, A8, A3, A2, 22, 33, 88, 99 all beat you and all those hands are in his range. If you look at it properly, you shove and you only get called by better whilst you fold out all hands that are worse apart from perhaps AJ which is 1 hand and very unlikely.

That is wrongo-bongo. If it's a reg. I don't get it in, if it's an unknown, I LOVE the line: pot-pot-showvES <<<EDIT: Assuming no spade falls.

But what the hell do I know rite?
I think what a lot of players don't get at these limits is that in poker it's not just reg's and fish who play. There are a whole variety of fish at SSNL, there's the touristy recreational wight/passive/loose player who calls down with anything. There's the nit who plays nothing but Aces and Kings. There's the maniac who will try to push you off of a hand no matter the board texture. And there's also the bully, who thinks ahead but also loves to push you off a hand depending on board texture. And of course, there's also the regular or players who understand the fundamentals of the game but do not know how to implement them or mess up when they actually have t make the decisions. Finally there's the solid regulars (who in the microstakes will still most likely have a huge number of subtle leaks).

In the hand above, the only person who will call a shove when behind would be the tourist. The tourist will also most likely check behind if he checks. So against this type of player it is correct to shove.

Now OP checks the river-
The bully and maniac would try to push him out of the hand so he should call if they bet out. You should fold if the nit bets out. And against the regs you really need to know more about each reg so you know how they play and each of their tendencies to make the correct decision.

All of this shows why, when posting a hand it is just as important to post a short profile of the villain with as much information as you know at the time, because no one answer will be correct if you simply post a hand without any info on villain.
 
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TightPie
Old 12-22-2008, 05:31 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Hand 1
if he doesnt have a straight almost any bet he will fold.
if he has an ace he will call any bet
if he has 2 pair he will call any bet
if he has a set he will call any bet
if he has AK he will call

alternative...If on the river you bet $2-$3 (assuming you will call a shove)
he will reraise a straight
if he has an ace he will call and maybe reraise
if he has 2 pair he will call and maybe reraise
if he has a set he will reraise
if he has AK he might not reraise

alternative... if you check the river (assuming you will call a shove)
he will bet a straight
if he has an ace he might check thinking you are gonna check raise him
if he as 2 pair he might check thinking your 2 pair is higher
if he has a set he might check thinking he doesnt want to lose to a 45 straight
if he has AK he might check thinking you have A2 or A3 or A8 or A9 for 2 pair

You get the added benefit of ruining any table image he may have been trying to develope.
You get the benefit of showing the table that one of you is willing to go broke with 1 pair, which after all, a losing hand.

Hand 2
Worst case scenario, you let your opp see the flop and you missed the flop.
yes even if he had 22-77 and was improperly set mining he is still ahead of you, and although his 2 remaining dollars is not alot for you to win, its a huge amount for him to double up against AK.
think of it from his view most likely he isnt looking forward to calling an EP raise with17% of his stack and fold after the flop, not likely, he could be planning on betting/calling any flop hoping that he has enough chips to get you to fold even if he misses the flop.
would you bet double the pot if he had an equal stack to you?
would you bet double the pot if you hit the flop?
would you bet double the pot if you hit the flop and he had an equal stack to you?
i think your answer is no to all 3 questions.

Hand 3
i dotn think my concern is the SB or UTG, i think its the UTG+1
is UTG+1 loose or tight, could he be limping with intent of reraising.
your happy as a pig in siht to be all in against SB and UTG.
if UTG+1 is set minning, you are giving him great odds to do so, you have exactly 10X your bet.
this is potentially a 5 way pot with 2 limpers and small stacks in the sb and bubble and first limper, AKo is only 36% in a 5 way pot against random hands.
the hands that benefit from multiway pots are suited connectors, looking to hit a set or a flush, you dont have that, and if you hit and ace you cant fold, but if you were playing 67s, and you hit a 6 only, you can fold it easily.
if you are reraised by the 3 short stacks its an easy call, agaisnt the UTG+1 you have an issue. if you are a better player than him, you can fold, look for a better spot. if he is real loose and he shoves you call you may lose to the short stacks and double up the remaining part of your stack and end up right where you started.

I think you need to raise 7x-9x the bb, to thin the field and giving set minners very bad odds.
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