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TheSyphon
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05-21-2008, 02:38 PM
Post subject: Feeler Bets - What's the point?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Reykjavik, Iceland
Posts: 59
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A friend just told me that he flopped middle pair in early position and trew out a "Feeler Bet" to see where he was at.
I told him he was in 2nd or 3rd place AND with less chips.
Am I missing something? Over time this is going to cost my friend dearly IMO. Middle pair? I'm ready to dump it or see a free card, not invest.
I got to thinking, when IS a feeler bet a good idea? If I flop top pair and there were three hearts on on the board and none in my hand, do I put a feeler bet out to detect someone on a flush draw? If I want to get rid of drawing hands, I'm not placing a A feeler bet. A drawing hand is still going to call. I'm protecting my hand here or giving it up. A feeler bet seems to me like putting a house fire out with gas. It doesn't really help and probably makes things much worse.
I think a feeler bet sends information to your opponents too. I'm thinking bet out or check and learn, but a feeler bet? 
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zxqv8
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 79
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Sounds to me like something picked up from HOH but not really understood. I also wonder when feeler bets would be appropriate, if at all.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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It depends on your opponent.
People use them all the time in the live California games. Once I caught on, it was free money.
They bet, I raise them their car payment, send the pot. 
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L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 833
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
They bet, I raise them their car payment, send the pot. |
lol...that one actually made me laff out loud.
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Robb
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05-22-2008, 05:27 PM
Post subject: Re: Feeler Bets - What's the point?
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#5 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TheSyphon
A friend just told me that he flopped middle pair in early position and trew out a "Feeler Bet" to see where he was at.
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Poker announcers use that term on TV a good bit, even sometimes in straight up cbet situations. So maybe your friend picked it up there.
If I bet middle pair on the flop, I think of it as a bluff, and make it sizable.
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Ghaleon
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 224
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Feeler (or probe) bets are something I use when the board is draw heavy and I'm out of position with a marginal hand. I think check/folding this situation will get costly over time.
Let's say I'm in early position with pocket 7's and the board is 6,9,10 with two spades. Sure I can bet big and chase out the draws, but almost anything that calls has me beat.
Seems like the better play is to bet 1/4 or 1/3 of the pot. This will surely chase out the total junk hands. Flush and straight draws will still call, but at least you'll know exactly where you stand. Also, anyone with top pair, or two pair on a draw heavy board will almost certainly try to defend their hand by re-raising.
In the above example, if the turn is a straight card or a spade, I can check/fold and only take a minimal loss. If the turn is a blank, then I can feel very confident about betting the car payment.
But in the end, I think it really depends on your reads at the table, and your own table image. It becomes a very vulnerable play once someone catches on to what you're doing.
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ghaleon
Feeler (or probe) bets are something I use when the board is draw heavy and I'm out of position with a marginal hand. I think check/folding this situation will get costly over time.
Let's say I'm in early position with pocket 7's and the board is 6,9,10 with two spades. Sure I can bet big and chase out the draws, but almost anything that calls has me beat.
Seems like the better play is to bet 1/4 or 1/3 of the pot. This will surely chase out the total junk hands. Flush and straight draws will still call, but at least you'll know exactly where you stand. Also, anyone with top pair, or two pair on a draw heavy board will almost certainly try to defend their hand by re-raising.
In the above example, if the turn is a straight card or a spade, I can check/fold and only take a minimal loss. If the turn is a blank, then I can feel very confident about betting the car payment.
But in the end, I think it really depends on your reads at the table, and your own table image. It becomes a very vulnerable play once someone catches on to what you're doing.
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Aren't you offering great pot odds and reverse implied odds for almost any two cards with your 1/4 pot bet? Like in your example, say villain has a hand like 56o or A6. You're gonna have trouble knowing when you're beat and not offering up some value when he hits. And you're just value betting villain's hand at exactly the right price for his QJ, KJ, AJ and KQ. Seriously, think of the range of hands that just calls like KT, K9, J9 and A9 - this seems like spewing chips worse than the check/fold line.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Robb, the answer to a lot of that is it depends. Protecting your hand is often over-rated by players who've just become aware of how not to suck at this game.
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TheSyphon
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Reykjavik, Iceland
Posts: 59
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 Why bet at all? You don't have anything to defend. You likely won't complete a gut shot. Your sixes are unlikely to improve. Why waste a 1/4 pot bet? It seems to me that you should try to see the turn and river for free if at all possible. A Feeler Bet is just donating or building a pot for someone else.
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wylted
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05-27-2008, 12:38 PM
Post subject: feeler bet
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#10 (permalink)
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a feeler bet isnt really advertising i bet about 1/3 of pot with feeler bet but when i have a monster i will bet 1/3of pot a lot of times so if i bet 1/3 of pot and you raise me a car payment then a lot of times im getting paid huge
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TheSyphon
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Reykjavik, Iceland
Posts: 59
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How many 1/3 pot bets are you wasting to advertise?
In your example, you were raised a car payment. You were going to get paid on that one anyway, your feeler bets, in your own words, were useless.
Feeler bets are like a small guy I went to school with. He wanted to fight all the time. He lost almost all of his fights, but didn't care. If he ever won it was worth it. Being agressive without a hand or draw is pretty stupid, out of position especially. Why not reserve your ammo for a battle you can win? Or, put on a great bluff when you can really sell it or detect weakness?
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TheSyphon
Why bet at all? You don't have anything to defend. You likely won't complete a gut shot. Your sixes are unlikely to improve. Why waste a 1/4 pot bet? It seems to me that you should try to see the turn and river for free if at all possible. A Feeler Bet is just donating or building a pot for someone else. |
One use of a smaller than normal bet is defensively. Cbet a draw at a low amount in hopes of just getting called rather than raised.
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TheSyphon
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Reykjavik, Iceland
Posts: 59
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But again, you don't have much to defend here, the small bet IS going to get called and the pot odds are going in the wrong direction. I say "Check" and save your chips for the moment OR place a larger semi-bluff in these situations.
Acting strong or nuetral will help later too. A feeler bet, I think is useless.
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I hear this "feeler bet" stuff all the time while the dealer is pushing the pot to me.
Seriously folks, it's an overrated term brought on by TV announcers (as stated above) that novice players use because they think it's a strategic move when in fact, it's -EV, especially when people do it OOP. But whatever, I don't knock it because it makes me money. Cha-ching!
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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If you cant explain why you're doing it, you probably shouldnt do it .
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Just playing to improve.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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i prefer the feeler call
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TheSyphon
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Reykjavik, Iceland
Posts: 59
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"Feeler Call"; Good one! Absolutely, if you are on a draw you call the "feeler bet", what did he we learn here? (You're on a draw? The hook is set and ready to reel the fish in?)
If you have this guy crushed, his "feeler bet" is more money in your pocket.
A feeler bet is not a detourant and rarely tells you where you are. If you see the river and your opponent has a busted straight or flush draw, you throw out a feeler bet, he's folding anyway. Wasted bet with nothing to gain. If he pushes all-in on a bluff here, you lose your feeler bet.
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bluedevil907
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 146
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Unless you ended up HU or 3 handed with fairly passive players, I don't see justification for a feeler bet in practice. I understand the idea, but the hand doesn't really play out that way.
Complete crap isn't in the hand to begin with. You're going to fire again on a non-draw turn, so put those chips on the pot and save yourself chips against draws. Any decent hand is calling or RAISING this "feeler" bet.
There are SOME situations to use this as with any other move you can make, but for the most part I'd say you're just spewing chips.
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pankfish
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: On Tony Romo's nuts
Posts: 385
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Feeler bets are good if you have specific reads on players and how they play certain hands. If you know they always call with draws and always raise with made hands on boards with any draws on it a feeler bet would work great. If they call and the turn bricks you can bet pot and get them to make a very -ev call on the turn.
If you don't have specific reads on somebody then what are you really feeling out? It is way more effective in deep stack live play, and only if you have specific reads on how they play different hands or maybe have some sort of physical tell on them.
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<Staxalax> I want everyone to put my quote in their sigs
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pankfish
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: On Tony Romo's nuts
Posts: 385
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
It depends on your opponent.
People use them all the time in the live California games. Once I caught on, it was free money.
They bet, I raise them their car payment, send the pot. |
As long as they aren't doing it with a balanced range.
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<Staxalax> I want everyone to put my quote in their sigs
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AnTman_69
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 463
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Feeler bets are similar to donk bets. If oop, and your betting into the raiser. lol. What i mean is...feeler bets are silly and should be left to people that think they know how to play.
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Looming
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10
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Feeler bets can be usefull when there are quite a few people behind you and there is a decent amount of money in the pot. If someone is simply drawing to a flush or a straight they will normally just call and see what develops (although it depends on how aggresive the player is which you should take note of)
You put in at most 1/3 of the pot and in return you get to see how the opponents behind you react. If you had just checked and someone raised you have no idea whether the player is stabbing, drawing or has already made his hand. By making this small bet you can use your knowledge of the player to determine the hand he is most likely to have.
You never NEED to make a feeler bet but if you know how to use them well (a great example, Phil Ivey) then you can potentially make a lot of money without investing a lot of money.
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sethmundy
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 25
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i agree with you completely. i think that a feeler bet is stupid. if you could possibly check to see another card then why wouldn't you? i just think even if you are betting for feel even with a draw you could check and call a small bet. or if the bet is too big then you could fold. sound easier to me. anyways i have raise a feeler bet just because i knew what they were doing even if i miss.
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bigslikk
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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A "feeler" bet is a bet made when you put your opponent on a very wide range. They suck because these underbets are generally taken for what they represent: weak holdings.
You act weak; the villain bluffs; you fold (villain gave you the "answer" that you both wanted).
No more feelers. Potting it OOP for no reason would probably be better lol.
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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I've always strugged hugely with feeler bets.
An argument for feeler bets I've often heard is "If I get the information now, it will save me money on later streets because if I'm beat he'll call/raise."
For me it's quite paradoxical - If nearly all worse hands fold and nearly all better hands put money in, then sure, the feeler bet has given you information, but putting money in the pot so you can fold it away seems like burning a wad 'o' fives. Just play some fucking poker?
Where's the hole in my thought process?
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MehFU
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 101
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feeler bet gone wrong...u have top pair u feeler bet 1/2 pot because u have a9s someone calls behind u. the board is flushing it is perfectly acceptable for a flush draw to raise half your stack here without fear of making a bad move.....do u know ur dead or should u call the bet or should u fold???
all you have done here is shoot youself in the foot.
keep your bet sizing ULTRA consistent. with a feeler bet you are simply saying im post oak bluffing or i have a huge hand. so they might reraise u back with any draw top pair or over pair and ur still none the wiser and ur getting backwards dictated to. ie your slightly passive betting has put you on the backfoot and you did it yourself.... bet strong bluff or cbet with top pair good kicker or a super strong hand. theyll perceive your continual 2/3 pot betting as your only play. its unreadable.
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