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facing pot size bet on the river with top pair

  
 
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Extremophile
Old 09-19-2009, 12:31 AM     Post subject: facing pot size bet on the river with top pair #1 (permalink)  
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Sorry, I don't have any stats; I couldn't connect to SQL server. I had been pretty active on the table so I thought villian might be trapping. Any comments?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($2)
UTG ($2.17)
Hero (MP) ($3.02)
Button ($3.10)
SB ($6.71)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 10, A
1 fold, Hero bets $0.06, Button calls $0.06, SB calls $0.05, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.20) 7, 9, Q (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks

Turn: ($0.20) 9 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.10, Button calls $0.10, 1 fold

River: ($0.40) A (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.42, Hero folds

Total pot: $0.40 | Rake: $0

Results:
Button had Q, J (two pair, Queens and nines).
Outcome: Button won $0.40
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bigspenda73
Old 09-19-2009, 12:46 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 bet the river c/f other streets
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JustinSKS
Old 09-19-2009, 01:00 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Yes, I have a question actually, what is his range? When you bet and they flat. I'd say lots of KQ, KJ, QJ, TT-22, maybe some suited connectors like 9T, 89, JT. What is his range to you? You gotta think about what his range is and how he'll play his range. So he flats your turn bet, well he has like 33 combos of with 9's in them if he only plays T9 and 89 also 99. Compared to the rest of his range, 32 combos with 9's is way less then the other combos. I think you should have called that river, but I know the results so it's easy to say. You hit your hand and you fold. Seems counter intuitive. You put money in with air, hit your hand and fold.
I fold AA preflop.
 
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Old 09-19-2009, 01:38 AM #4 (permalink)  
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you're dumb for folding river
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Stacks
Old 09-19-2009, 01:52 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinSKS
Yes, I have a question actually, what is his range? When you bet and they flat. I'd say lots of KQ, KJ, QJ, TT-22, maybe some suited connectors like 9T, 89, JT. What is his range to you? You gotta think about what his range is and how he'll play his range. So he flats your turn bet, well he has like 33 combos of with 9's in them if he only plays T9 and 89 also 99. Compared to the rest of his range, 32 combos with 9's is way less then the other combos. I think you should have called that river, but I know the results so it's easy to say. You hit your hand and you fold. Seems counter intuitive. You put money in with air, hit your hand and fold.
T9/89/99 does not equal 33 combos.

T9 = 6 combos
89 = 8 combos
99 = 1 combo
Total = 15 combos

Just wondering where you got 33 from.
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JustinSKS
Old 09-19-2009, 02:39 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Sorry I keep forgetting to include dead cards in my calculations when doing combos. Shit.
I fold AA preflop.
 
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Extremophile
Old 09-19-2009, 09:38 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
you're dumb for folding river
I don't know I am doing something wrong with assigning his range:


Board: Qs 9d 7c 9s Ad
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 90.411% 80.82% 09.59% 59 7.00 { AA, QQ, 99, 77, A9s+, K9s, Q9s, J9s, T9s, 96s+, A9o+, K9o, Q9o, J9o, T9o }
Hand 1: 09.589% 00.00% 09.59% 0 7.00 { AsTd }
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Carroters
Old 09-19-2009, 11:31 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 He bets aces there aswell and also some bluffs, but that's not the point.

The point is bet the river because he'll call with more worse hands than better ones. Usually he checks back stuff like Qs or worse when you check where as he may call a bet with them. His range looks pretty damn weak on this river actually, he's done nothing but called a half pot weak looking turn bet. To assume he's obv trapping and obv has a 9 a lot of the time just because you've been playing a lot of hands is really dumb.

 
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ljove
Old 09-19-2009, 12:08 PM #9 (permalink)  
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0.06 raise before the flop is not so strong in micros.There are lot of loose players who will call you with any hand.You must consider their player image while playing.
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Extremophile
Old 09-19-2009, 12:34 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
To assume he's obv trapping and obv has a 9 a lot of the time just because you've been playing a lot of hands is really dumb.
idk. Do you think he makes a pot size bet with Qx on the river?

one read on the villian: he was guessing my hands. so, he is a thinking player.
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Carroters
Old 09-19-2009, 03:18 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 No usually I woulnd't expect him to do that with Q, but what do I expect him to do with a Q? Call a bet, so bet!

 
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daven
Old 09-19-2009, 04:07 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extremophile
one read on the villian: he was guessing my hands. so, he is a thinking player.
this made me laugh.
time to change my sig.
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 09-19-2009, 04:12 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 Oh sweet this is one of those 2 way bet spots aejones talked about.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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surviva316
Old 09-19-2009, 04:30 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 OP still hasn't answered why you didn't bet the river. just do that 100% of the time, and who the hell cares what he has when he makes that PSB. stabbing at the turn only to c/f when the best possible card for your hand shows up on the river is like omg wtf
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Extremophile
Old 09-19-2009, 04:57 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
Quote:
Originally Posted by Extremophile
one read on the villian: he was guessing my hands. so, he is a thinking player.
this made me laugh.
time to change my sig.
actually, he did it once right before the showdown and he wasn't in the pot.

If you feel like you really want to change your signature, i don't mind but probably it is not worth to it. "thinking player" was for the level I play.
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Extremophile
Old 09-19-2009, 05:05 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316
OP still hasn't answered why you didn't bet the river. just do that 100% of the time, and who the hell cares what he has when he makes that PSB. stabbing at the turn only to c/f when the best possible card for your hand shows up on the river is like omg wtf
because villian was a tight player and making instant calls. what do you think my equity is on the river?
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Carroters
Old 09-19-2009, 05:16 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extremophile
Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316
OP still hasn't answered why you didn't bet the river. just do that 100% of the time, and who the hell cares what he has when he makes that PSB. stabbing at the turn only to c/f when the best possible card for your hand shows up on the river is like omg wtf
because villian was a tight player and making instant calls. what do you think my equity is on the river?
omfg, good vs his calling range.

 
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Old 09-19-2009, 05:24 PM #18 (permalink)  
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this is the first time I'm hearing of this tightness of the villain
your equity on the river is good
I mean the pot checked around on the flop, villain didn't raise turn

villain can have a lot of air that bets the river scare card to make you fold a seven (T8, JT, 86, any backdoor spades) or a pocket pair
villain can have a queen and bet it for value anyway

if villain had hands like QQ, AA, 77, 99, Q9, 79 he'd bet flop (not to mention 3b pre with QQ, AA)
AK he would 3b pre
AQ he would bet on the flop

so he has either:
something that's not too strong on the flop (TPGK/TPNK)
a draw that he doesn't want to fold on the turn and bluffs river with since it's scary

now he could have trip 9s, but he might raise turn since he it's impossible for him to get stacks in without raising

I'm actually surprised he checked QJ on the flop, I'd expect most people to bet that
but anyway I would expect him to have a better hand infrequently here because all the better hands bet flop or raise turn

even if he is slowplaying, that's probably less likely than him bluffing
I mean betting river is good, but checking river to catch a bluff from about every single busted draw could be better
and if he vbets worse, sucks for him
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Extremophile
Old 09-19-2009, 05:33 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Extremophile
Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316
OP still hasn't answered why you didn't bet the river. just do that 100% of the time, and who the hell cares what he has when he makes that PSB. stabbing at the turn only to c/f when the best possible card for your hand shows up on the river is like omg wtf
because villian was a tight player and making instant calls. what do you think my equity is on the river?
omfg, good vs his calling range.
this kind of statement is not instructive and doesn't prove or explain anything. I guess i should memorize we are good here.

I understand we should bet the river but, I have doubts about our equity after his bet on the river.

edit: I was typing this when iopq sent his last post.
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Extremophile
Old 09-19-2009, 05:59 PM #20 (permalink)  
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iopq, i wanted to add AK,AQ, and QQ+ on his range because I had been pretty active and c-betting almost 100% of the time.

It is interesting for me to hear from you guys that he might be doing this pot size bet on the river with QJ. So, he is also doing this with the nuts?

This was my third session ever on cash games. In my first two sessions, I had faced coolers and was disgusted. I decided to give it a try again anyways. I posted 3 hands I doubt I made the correct play. I'll spare more time for cash games and keep posting dumb and retarded things. thanks everyone for your comments!
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:31 PM #21 (permalink)  
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people don't adjust at 2NL as much as you would like to think
I mean you keep cbetting and it keeps working and then the first time the fish calls you're like "oh he must have picked up on my 100% cbet percentage! I'm going to fire a second barrel to get him off his junk!" but he ends up having top pair and you end up feeling stupid for thinking he actually paid attention to something other than his own cards

Also, so what if you've been cbetting 100% of the time, you didn't cbet this hand so what's stopping him from firing the flop
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Extremophile
Old 09-19-2009, 09:36 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Also, so what if you've been cbetting 100% of the time, you didn't cbet this hand so what's stopping him from firing the flop
that's right because he has a crappy A and I should have called the river bet.
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