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Extracting value with a set

  
 
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rong
Old 01-11-2010, 09:53 PM     Post subject: Extracting value with a set #1 (permalink)  
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 No reads on villain cos I'm not playing with a hud, haven't been at the table long and I was reading FTR posts while playing.

I am pretty sure I should have got more out of this but when he started betting into me I was scared to raise in case I scared him off.

Should I have bet/cr on the flop? The turn? Bet more on the river? Or maybe even check raised on the river? Maybe even have shoved the river?

Out of position I'm just not sure how best to play.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($6.93)
SB ($9.86)
Hero (BB) ($4.31)
UTG ($2.26)
MP ($5.07)
CO ($8.50)

Preflop: Hero is BB with ,
3 folds, Button bets $0.15, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.32) , , (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.62) (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.35, Hero calls $0.35

River: ($1.32) (2 players)
Hero bets $0.90, Button calls $0.90

Total pot: $3.12 | Rake: $0.15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.

Fucking. Retarded.
 
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OhioRounder
Old 01-11-2010, 10:07 PM #2 (permalink)  
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He's not betting into you, he has position. You have no reads so you don't know if it's a blatant steal attempt or he's actually got a decent hand. Against an unknown, just bet IMO. If they have anything, they'll come along with you.

Checking on the river = bad unless A) you're positive you have nuts and B) you're positive he likes his hand enough to 3-barrel.

You want to get at least 15:1 on your PF call so make sure you get at least that when you do hit your set.
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rong
Old 01-11-2010, 10:13 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioRounder
He's not betting into you, he has position.
bad choice of words but I get that

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioRounder
You have no reads so you don't know if it's a blatant steal attempt or he's actually got a decent hand. Against an unknown, just bet IMO. If they have anything, they'll come along with you.
I thought it may well be a steel hence my line of giving him a second shot at it but not giving him the chance to check the river

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioRounder
You got your 20:1 worth of value on the river though so congratulations.
I have no idea what the last bit means
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.

Fucking. Retarded.
 
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Dex
Old 01-11-2010, 10:35 PM #4 (permalink)  
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At least 2/3 of those reasons are not good reasons to be without reads on villain. A HUD does not specifically tell you if villain is a station with top pair and neither will FTR. If you don't do this already, you should definitely bring up the instant hand history and quickly look to see if they played any other decent sized pots or if they showed anything down, you can do this during the hand.

Checking the river here would make it by far the worst played street because you're just inviting him to check stuff back they'd call a bet with.

I think given villain's bet sizing on the flop I'd expect them to fold frustratingly often to a c/r, but after they seemingly valuebet the turn around the same ratio I'd throw in a smallish c/r and lead the river if called.
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rong
Old 01-11-2010, 10:45 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioRounder

You want to get at least 15:1 on your PF call so make sure you get at least that when you do hit your set.
That makes sense now. You think you should have that in mind when deciding final bet size?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.

Fucking. Retarded.
 
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Fnord
Old 01-11-2010, 10:56 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioRounder
You want to get at least 15:1 on your PF call so make sure you get at least that when you do hit your set.
He shouldn't be playing for just sets in this spot or he's giving away too much money.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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rong
Old 01-11-2010, 11:03 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 Fnord, you have fine taste in music sir, when the volume is off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.

Fucking. Retarded.
 
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celtic123
Old 01-11-2010, 11:06 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanAronG
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioRounder

You want to get at least 15:1 on your PF call so make sure you get at least that when you do hit your set.
That makes sense now. You think you should have that in mind when deciding final bet size?
Thats an intresting thought ,might be a good way to judge the size of your river bet without scaring the villian off.

Actually, Imagine doing it , someone observant might catch on.

Hmm.....If i call that river bet ,hell be getting 15 times his original call. must have a set. FOLD
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OhioRounder
Old 01-12-2010, 12:39 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Yeah, I read the pot size wrong and had to fix my post.

Fnord, I agree. However, I assume his hand reading skills are novice so donking into a PF raiser without a set (or insert board texture here) may lead to spew/leakage for a beginner.
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AlphaKennyBody
Old 01-12-2010, 03:44 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Why all the talk about set odds when this could very well be just a steal attempt?
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EasyPoker
Old 01-12-2010, 04:14 AM #11 (permalink)  
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 How could I have got more from this?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($5.51)
SB ($2.87)
BB ($2.11)
UTG ($1.67)
MP ($3.60)
CO ($2.19)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, Q
1 fold, MP calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.08, 2 folds, MP calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.19) Q, Q, 7 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.19) 4 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.02, MP calls $0.02

River: ($0.23) 3 (2 players)
MP bets $0.18, Hero calls $0.18

Total pot: $0.59 | Rake: $0
[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
 
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OhioRounder
Old 01-12-2010, 04:25 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
How could I have got more from this?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($5.51)
SB ($2.87)
BB ($2.11)
UTG ($1.67)
MP ($3.60)
CO ($2.19)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, Q
1 fold, MP calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.08, 2 folds, MP calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.19) Q, Q, 7 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.19) 4 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.02, MP calls $0.02

River: ($0.23) 3 (2 players)
MP bets $0.18, Hero calls $0.18

Total pot: $0.59 | Rake: $0
Bet the flop. Paired boards are hard to hit and most 2NL villains won't believe you. Value bet, value bet, value bet.
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Fnord
Old 01-12-2010, 04:49 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaKennyBody
Why all the talk about set odds when this could very well be just a steal attempt?
This

We shouldn't be giving up really easy against uninspired button aggression. Whatever our line may be, we shouldn't be playing for only a set here. Being out of position it's hard to showdown, so at least we should be re-bluffing from time to time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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rong
Old 01-12-2010, 05:45 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 I may be an aggro donk, but I would usually be betting or raising any flop heads up approx 75% of the time. Espec with a mid range pocket pair. Cos either there's a good chance you're ahead, ie not many overs, or there is proably a good hand to represent, ie a high card.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.

Fucking. Retarded.
 
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spoonitnow
Old 01-12-2010, 05:55 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 I didn't read the OP but the answer is going to be something like bet bet raise raise bet raise raise bet bet bet raise raise raise go all-in.
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Rule # 1: don't ask questions

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I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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EasyPoker
Old 01-14-2010, 12:36 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 Could I have got more from this?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($2.86)
BB ($1.17)
UTG ($0.99)
MP ($0.81)
Hero (CO) ($4.21)
Button ($1.81)

Preflop: Hero is CO with ,
UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.08, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.19) , , (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.19) (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($0.19) (2 players)
UTG bets $0.12, Hero raises to $0.24, UTG calls $0.12

Total pot: $0.67 | Rake: $0

I think even had I min bet the flop, villain would have folded on a board like that.
[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
 
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OhioRounder
Old 01-14-2010, 12:53 PM #17 (permalink)  
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If you're not going to at least bet the turn, then just fold the flop because this hand looks like you don't even want to play. Min-raise on river is terrible.
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bigspenda73
Old 01-14-2010, 01:34 PM #18 (permalink)  
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 so

much

facepalming


Dude, put money in the middle when you have a strong hand. In the original hand I'd lead the flop, bet big on the turn, and probably find a way to bet a lot on the river.

In the other hands in this thread not going ahead and betting the flop severely reduces the amount of money you can potentially earn in each spot.
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JR9477
Old 01-14-2010, 02:13 PM #19 (permalink)  
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 I can understand OP's concern about how to get value on his board. But Easy, there is SO much stuff that people can call down here, and at 2nl, they're going to be calling down even wider than they ever should.
(Josh)
 
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!Luck
Old 01-14-2010, 03:13 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 Concept: Re: First Hand:

Is the villain going to fold AT or 108 to a pot size bet? I take the line that it is better to get a great hand all in as soon as possible then try to milk 15bb out of someone who's bluffing at you. With big hands you want to make a lot of money from TPTK and 2 pair hands or punish drawers hard, you don't care if you give up a little value of someone with third pair.

Also: Easy Poker please don't hijack threads and. PLEASE BET and Don't ever bet .02. Also, poeple will stop responding to you if you make less effort posting a hand then it takes us to answer it.
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shallam
Old 01-14-2010, 03:58 PM #21 (permalink)  
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In general, I like betting small w sets on dry flops and big with draw heavy flops. I'd probably bet a little more on the flop as there are hands like TX, J9, 97, QJ -- some of these hand could really hurt you. I like betting 2/3 to full pot.


Now that you have filled up you want to make small bets hoping these opp will hit their straight, two pair types hands. Naturally we will be unhappy if the board card pairs above us. I like your turn bet.


I would bet a little stronger on the river, hoping to get a call --- somewhere between 3/4p and all in. I most like betting the size of the pot.
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