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an experiment in fishyness...

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Chopper

12-11-2007, 02:24 PM Post subject: an experiment in fishyness...

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i post this here because this is where i will find the ultimate "lab rat," the ubermicro grinders.

i'm talking to those of you pounding away at the 10NL level and below. those of you, HOWEVER, must be confident in your game. maybe, a 25NL guy/gal wanting a challenge for the "fun of it."

i have found some tables that run consistently OVER 50% vpip. some aggressive, some not. but, all very loose pf.

i want to know HOW you would beat these games, and if YOU can.

i sat at a table last night, and i'm not kidding, with 2 75%+ vpip's, a 60%, a 45%, and a 40%. at first, you think, "HOLY SHIT, its the mother load of fish." and, yes, i think you are correct, based on what these turkeys show down. but, i think sklansky's/malmuth/miller (one of them) "schooling affect" is in order here. it is difficult to beat all of them at the same time.

i want someone to play 10-15k hands over here, and report back as to what they see, how they played, how they ran, if they beat the game, and if they think its as easy as it should be. stuff like that.

if you have questions as to the ethics, PM me, as i know this can sound weird...like i have an "agenda" or something. nothing financial, simply curiosity because i'm, personally, stumped.

courtie, i think you know me well enough, by post count, to know i'm no spammer, etc. i just dont want to give the goods away until i know theres interest.

post your interest here, and we'll take it from there. first, i just want to see where this goes...if theres interest from the appropriate "skill level" of player.

thanks for humoring me.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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Taxi

12-11-2007, 02:52 PM

#2 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Lincoln, UK

Posts: 226

FR or 6-max?
I've got 12k 6max hands and 14k FR hands from when I was playing $10NL, I'm not sure if the stats are any use to you, let me know if they are.
I don't think I've got the time to be putting in 15k hands of $10NL, I'm tempted tho, just out of curiosity I suppose.

Chopper

12-11-2007, 04:00 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

either/or. no difference, to me. i suppose i would treat them differently, though. i just have a harder time finding fr traffic at my site.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Jibalob

12-11-2007, 10:31 PM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Out of my roll

Posts: 512

I once wondered how well I would be able to crush the micro LHE games after progressing to 5/10.

I only got about 8k hands of 0.10/0.20 in but let's just say my winrate is better at 5/10! (I actually lost money at .10/.20)

Believe it or not, it's just as difficult to move down 7 levels as it is to move up a level!

PLEASE READ ULTIMATE BET THREAD IN "ONLINE POKER ROOMS" FORUM
Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]

Miffed22001

12-11-2007, 11:33 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

ill post from my 'return to basics' operation i.e return to and thrash 25nl 50nl and 100nl.

Currently 20bbs/100 + playing 22/17

Chopper

12-12-2007, 01:50 AM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

ill post from my 'return to basics' operation i.e return to and thrash 25nl 50nl and 100nl.

Currently 20bbs/100 + playing 22/17

teach us how to read these fuckos. of course, youre prolly just on a heater...lol.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

daven

12-12-2007, 03:41 AM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

sounds like fun dude, I could be up for having a taste of that action

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

pankfish

12-12-2007, 04:28 AM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2007

Location: On Tony Romo's nuts

Posts: 385

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

ill post from my 'return to basics' operation i.e return to and thrash 25nl 50nl and 100nl.

Currently 20bbs/100 + playing 22/17

teach us how to read these fuckos. of course, youre prolly just on a heater...lol.

I don't think you read these fuckos. You can't be to aggressive, I think running around 24/12 is best. I tried being aggressive the last couple of days and my winrate suffered greatly. Just don't polarize your raising range, save that for when you are playing real poker. You raise your big hands, limp with suited connectors and small pps. It doesn't do you any good to raise hands like 8-9s because nobody pays attention to what you are raising with any way, half of them just look at their cards, 1/4 just call no matter what, and the other 1/4 never call a raise. You are just throwing away money at these stakes betting small drawing hands preflop.

After that just put your range against theres. Don't put them on specific hands, just judge them by the type of player they are. Either they never bet unless they have nuts/near nuts, complete calling stations, or they are batshit insane and think 7-4 HAS to be the best hand when the flop comes Q-8-4. So you may have call down sometimes with marginal hands if you think that to opponent will bet worse, value bet against calling stations...etc...

Microstakes limit kicks my ass. I have no idea how to beat that game. Seems like you should fold AA preflop and continue with SC's. It's just such a crap shoot.

Chopper

12-12-2007, 01:00 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

funny you mention that, pank. actually, you are bringing me back to micro-basics...lol. when you move up, you sometimes cant move back down...the worlds are just THAT much different, imo.

10NL and 25NL seem to be the breaking point, for me. 50NL plays even easier. i just enjoy destroying the 10NLers. i'll get to the "challenge" here in a minute...since we seem to have some interest generated here.

the secret to 10NL, imo, is like you said. you cant be TOO aggressive. that doesnt mean you HAVE TO BE aggressive. it means SLOW DOWN.

down here, you hide behind limpers. you raise pf bigger w/ premiums. you dont cbet like a monkey. you dont 2 barrel often. YOU WILL NOT BLOW THESE FISH OFF POTS!!! the "fold button" is much smaller on their screens than it is yours; i doubt any of them could tell you where that button is.

when i ran my best, not currently, i ran about 20/10/2.5 at fr and 18/9/2 in 6max. and, that may be too aggressive. i would venture to say, you need to run tight, 18ish, passive, 7ish, aggressive, 2ish. you need to see WHO is the spewtard, and call them down light. you need to see who to cbet and who NOT to (hint: most of them). you need a pretty solid pf game and a decent game on the flop. after that, at this level, i dont think it matters much.

do that, and you should run double digits. however, i have been overplaying a lot of hands (habits from higher limits that dont crossover lower). and, it has me on a 10BI downswing over 5k hands...most of it playing 200 bb's deep...so, really about 5 FULL BI's. but, whatever.

i am just warning you guys right now. you need to be able to KEEP CONFIDENCE IN YOUR GAME if you are dropping levels to help me. the "winning" habits you pick up down here may get even with you when you move back up.

i want to see who comes out of the "challenge" best. we will run it for 15k hands...should be 3-4 weeks for most of us. or, break it up over longer, thats fine. heres what i want...

- pick ONE site for your "experiment."
- update your play here fairly often...not every day/session.
- show stats/graphs
- spot trends, and post them with explanation in your "updates."

after your "challenge" is over...

- please summarize HOW you adjusted...and why it worked/didnt work.
- post your final stats. vpip/pfr/AF/W$WSF/cbet %, and let us see your "position stats, too." and, if you dont mind, throw in a graph, if you can.

i think it will be helpful for others to see, at this level, the variance. but, more importantly...the DIFFERENCES between this level, and the one you normally play.

who's in? and where will you be playing?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

WillburForce

12-12-2007, 01:03 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2006

Location: SW London

Posts: 516

WillburForce will become famous soon enough

i've been playing the lowest stakes on WillHill lately (.3/.6).

I started off trying to play tricky and make plays at people but its pointless(as everyone knows already).

All you can do is play very basic ABC poker.

I had A-A the other day, made good raise and got 2 callers. Flop came : A, 3, 9.

I make another big raise, one call, the other re-riases. All three of us end up all in on flop. one shows down K-9 the other had 3-9.

These people call pre-flop randomly when they "feel lucky", if they hit the folp they go all the way with it.

there is no strategy, other than playing tight as a nuns crack, to beat these stakes. Just wait till you have a solid hand and bet it.

But, i'll be very interested to see how this goes. I'll post some of my results as i'm grinding the low stakes again.

Normski

daven

12-13-2007, 03:36 AM

#11 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

so do you want 15k hands at 10nl or 25nl?
Full Ring or 6-max?
I'm happy to do any combination. I won't be able to hit it hard for a week or two, but should get the hands in this year.
Most likely FullTilt, but could be Party if there is an interesting promo or bonus, or Purple (prima network - but won't be playing FR there)

It could be a good way to force myself to look at position a little more.
I disagree completely about c-bets, maybe cos every flop I see is raised. That will be an interesting stat - filtered on raised flop after raised pre...

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

Chopper

12-13-2007, 03:47 AM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

preferrably 10NL 6max. i would rather run this at 10NL.

as for the cbet thingy, thats cool. i look forward to your stats. i cbet quite a bit (i cant get under 45% for the life of me), but seem to get called a lot. i didnt cbet a lot in the past and ran better...small sample, though.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

pankfish

12-13-2007, 04:24 AM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2007

Location: On Tony Romo's nuts

Posts: 385

here is an exercise in 10nl hand reading. MP has an over pair. What is the most likely hand that the small blind has? I can't see a flush here with the flop action. Should MP call? I think the most likely hands are a missed flush, missed straight, missed over cards. Either way I think it's gotta be a bluff.

Keep in mind that the sb got stacked by me earlier on a horrible suck out. He was on the button and I was the bb. It got checked to him preflop and and he raised, I raised him with like 6-5. Flop came out jack high with three clubs, he checked/ I bet/ he raised/ I shoved as a bluff and he calls with A J of hearts. I end up sucking out with a fourth club so he may be tilting.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($3.65)
SB ($11.95)
BB ($4.50)
Hero ($14.05)
MP ($15)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T

, 2

.
1 fold, MP raises to $0.4, 1 fold, SB calls $0.35, 1 fold.

Flop: ($0.90) 4

, 6

, 5

(2 players)
SB checks, MP bets $0.6, SB raises to $2, MP calls $1.40.

Turn: ($4.90) 5

(2 players)
SB bets $2, MP calls $2.

River: ($8.90) 3

(2 players)
SB bets $5, MP folds.

Final Pot: $8.90

JinxT4

12-13-2007, 06:41 AM

#14 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 265

I might be interested, if the site's US friendly...?

Chopper

12-13-2007, 01:30 PM

#15 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Jinx, the sites are either ones. and, we arent going to play the same site, ideally. i want this experiment to be conducted by several of us...at the sites you already play. hopefully, we can get 5-10 guys involved and accumulate some good "reports" of what worked, and what didnt.

i want you to run the way you normally do at 25NL+, but make your adjustments as you notice the differences, or exploitable tendencies, and then REPORT what those changes were. did you get more passive? more aggressive? did you open your limping range pf? did you move from 30/20 to 50/35 because these guys were so weak-tight? stuff like that. but, by all means, play the site you are used to.

pankfish, my thoughts on the hand are these:
- it is a rare player at 10NL that can c/r a draw. maybe AK of hearts.
- when he follows it up on turn AND river, i lean towards 2 pair, flopped str8 or TT-QQ. maybe a set.

whatever it is, its air or BIG. i lean towards big, though. when a 10NL player shows big time aggression, 90% of the time, its the goods. if its air, good for him, i'll stack him when he runs into a big hand of mine, and he tries that shit again.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

biondino

12-13-2007, 01:34 PM

#16 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars

Posts: 3,170

44, 66, 45, 46, 56, 77

Cocco_Bill

12-13-2007, 02:28 PM

#17 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Sweden

Posts: 1,254

unless you have some kind of phobia of felting 100bb's there is no easier game to beat than the one described.

pankfish

12-14-2007, 03:51 AM

#18 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2007

Location: On Tony Romo's nuts

Posts: 385

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

unless you have some kind of phobia of felting 100bb's there is no easier game to beat than the one described.

Yeah, the variance is just a lot sharper.

Silly String

12-14-2007, 02:59 PM

#19 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: KC, MO

Posts: 1,434

Two words: Set Hunt!

Gawd awful, boring poker but very effective vs. the looseness of that game.

Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.

euphoricism

12-14-2007, 03:48 PM

#20 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Your place or my place

Posts: 3,610

Three words: Buy In Short!

;]

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

pgil

12-14-2007, 04:20 PM

#21 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1,103

with many players felting a wide range of hands, sethunting can't be the most profitable way of playing these stakes.

find what someone is willing to felt, and felt hands that play well against them/beat them. If someone will felt bottom pair, underpair - be willing to felt med pairs and TP's +. If someone felts TP any kicker, take a TP medium kicker +. If someone felts 2 pr - top 2 or better. If someone only felts sets or better, steal every pot that they don't hit a set in.

- I believe I may have set an FTR record for uses of the word 'felt' in a single post

"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce

Halv

12-14-2007, 04:43 PM

#22 (permalink)

pro crastinator
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Location: No hindsight for the blind.

Posts: 1,842

My younger brother is starting out in poker, I'm gonna coach/sweat him a bit during christmas. He'll be playing 10NL 6max on FTP. Strategy will probably be "Pretty nitty preflop, value bet the hell out of TPGK+, never fold any reasonable hand". We'll see how it goes, maybe I'll post some results in this thread if we get enough hands (I'm thinking 2-4-tabling so it probably won't be a huge sample).

First music vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFerARdGW04
Free stream of different song here: http://www.nrk.no/urort/artist/wellfear ('Lytt'/play button on right side)

Chopper

12-14-2007, 05:42 PM

#23 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

teach him WHO to look for, though. blanket strategies dont get it done anymore, imo. i am finding out that my "TPTK style" isnt working as "no-brainer" as it used to.

i used to be a value betting machine, and would stack off with better in a heartbeat, but lately, i am getting minraised with both goods and crap, but cant decipher between the two.

you need to teach him to bet his draws to disguise his TP+ hands, too.

it'll be fun to see if YOU have any comments about the games, HalvSame. i doubt you've seen a $10 table in a long time. feel free to give me your opinions...please.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Chopper

12-14-2007, 06:26 PM

#24 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Three words: Buy In Short!

;]

so funny you mention that. i thought about it, to actually REDUCE my variance for the time being. lol.

but, i cant bring myself to buy-in short at a friggin 10NL table. i can barely do it at 25NL.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

daven

12-15-2007, 02:08 AM

#25 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

just realised I've got 23k fairly recent 6-max hands logged at 10nl on prima!
so maybe I don't need to play this experiment out? although I think I would do a lot better now - I was learning to play 6-max at the time, and had completely no idea. But it still didn't seem so bad...
I'll figure out how to post the PT images - best to simply upload to imageshack then img-url-/img in the post?

I was running like 26-12.5 (although 2k hands had 3 or less players, so this would change a little) and AF by street was 4.7, 2.5, 3.2
bet or raised 60% of flops that I had pre-flop raised
wtsd =24%, W$WSD = 50%
W$WSF=37%
PTbb/100 = 2.56

Position went from 19-15UTG through to 29-16 on the button.
sweet.[/img]

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

Chopper

12-15-2007, 03:34 AM

#26 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by daven

i appreciate any stats anyone can throw my way, but lets not misunderstand the "challenge" i want to undertake...

daven, i am not singling you out(i dont know your experience or current level), and please no one take any personal offense to this...but, i want "experienced," successful players from 25NL and 50NL to "drop down" and take on 10NL for awhile. i want to see what somebody used to playing higher up thinks about the lower games...currently. and, i want to see the "adjustments" they made to crush the uber-microstakes.

if you've been at 10NL for quite awhile (several months), and have been playing poker for more than 6 months to a year, then, i want to hear what "adjustments" YOU have made in the past few months to get better.

i wont disregard any input anybody will give, but i want to see what the difference is between 10NL and the next levels. i believe there is a difference, and i believe you need to employ some tactics you would NEVER employ at a higher level to beat these games.

i am looking for "generic" reads. do we call down more? and with what kind of hand? do we bet our draws? do we cbet? and, how often? how many hands are we raising? and, are we limping? are we running into TAGs, LAGs, or players that think they are one or the other but just suck. etc, etc.

btw, i will start my "experiment" on Monday. this is starting to drag on....and that usually leads to off-topic. daven, and anyone else is more than invited to start with me. if you can start before Christmas, pm me please and let me know you are in, and willing to give it a go starting very soon.

we can post what we find here, or start our own individual threads. i dont care what we do, but i want a pm to know who to follow more closely than the rest of the threads.

many thanks.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

daven

12-15-2007, 04:00 AM

#27 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

cool, understand better now - more about what adjustments are necessary vs higher stakes than simply what works to beat the game. Cool - My last 15k hands have been figuring out 25nl fullring - after a bunch of 6-max play, and this included my first serious downswing. I'm breakeven at 25nl now, and think I'm figuring out how to beat it consistently. But I'm far from being a successful player at stakes higher than 10nl - um, I may grind out the hands at 10nl on prima again though, just to finish clearing a bonus over there - if so I'll post some thoughts - hope that others do this thing...
oh, almost a year since i learnt the rules to texas hold em around a beer-laden table in (I think?) Uruguay...
by the way, op talks about 50%+VPIP tables etc. Where?

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

Chopper

12-15-2007, 04:07 AM

#28 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

ok. here is where i am coming from...friggin variance. this is my last 15k hands. i am EXTREMELY frustrated, hence the challenge/experiment.

i dont like variance. i usually run steadily upward...not like cocco_bill...but, who does? i used to click along at 10-12 at the 10NL tables, but hit a patch of bad variance, and bad me.

at any rate, if anyone wants to see what 15k of breakeven looks like, click the thumb. here you go...

this is mostly 6max with a little fr sprinkled in (maybe 5%). but, the last 6k hands are pissing me off.

and heres my basic numbers for the same run...

these are position numbers...

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Robb

12-15-2007, 12:05 PM

#29 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,072

Robb is an unknown quantity at this point

Chopper, I'm in. I have 30k hands at UB from last 10 weeks, and 15k hands from Absolute just before that. I can post results from those, plus I'm 9-tabling 6-max and FR NL10, about 750 hands / hour right now. We'll discuss in a PM exactly what part of the experiment I'm in, but I'm in, either at UB or Absolute, or both.

Set hunting is surely profitable here, but there are lots of ways to make money. I'll stack off with TPTK about half the time, maybe more. I watch the TAF - if a TAF < 1.2 bets at me, I'm usually dumping TPTK. There are a lot of set hunters, and the limp/call slowplay a set is ubiquitous where I play, so I tend to fold TPTK under those circumstances. But there's of a lot a boards where I'll bet AK all the way on a K-high uncoordinated board, and find I'm in against KTs. LoL.

I run a bit more aggressive PF that most of the stats reported above, about 24/18 to 22/16, with overall aggression around 3.5. It's either bet or fold, here. I'm not a my PT computer. I will post graphs and stats from there later today. Slowplays are nice ways to stack off to 73o when you have AA in the hole.

Anyway, I'm in. I look forward to seeing what works, especially from you NL25's and NL50's. The changes we need to make to be successful as we go up would of VERY GREAT interest to most of us micro-grinders. BTW, I'm up nearly $200 in the last three days 9-tabling NL10. A bit of heater, but in general just playing lots of fish. I just wish I wasn't having such a problem coping with NL25 when I take shots up there. NL25's and NL50's, please join the experiment and help some baby-grinders with the "next steps" on our learning curve.

Miffed22001

12-20-2007, 10:51 PM

#30 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

bump

Graph plus stats below. Im assuming these are what ISF might term 'proper' TAGG stats, fairly standard, but obviously beats 25nl
I think its pretty clear i had a fair sized heater, but i did lose a couple of major pots to beats and actually reached the $500 profit target after just 8.2k hands but then lost a 600bbs pot with set over set (ill post if curious)

My personal next step is 50nl, but w/e im relearning poker at the moment.
All from AP

Stats

Graph

Ev graph for those who are interested in how it correlates

Chopper

12-20-2007, 11:08 PM

#31 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

nice run, miffy.

its fair to say you were on a heater, but thats a good thing. i assume you buy in for 200 bb's at AP?

i'll post mine once i get back on the wagon. i havent played but 300 hands or so the past 4-5 days. i plan to tonight. we'll see if i get some time.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Chopper

12-24-2007, 08:34 PM

#32 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

sorry guys, i am on such a "low volume" period right now. i played under 1k hands this entire week, and thats a record for me when i'm used to 1k+/day.

however, i have played a little, and figured some things out...

- the transition from 10NL to 25NL was, as expected, an adjustment to aggression. some 3betting, some c/ring cbets, some raising the river, etc. and, i adjusted well...too well.

- the transition back to 10NL needed to be a shift back to much more selective aggression. minraising, minbet donking, and calling light are the norm here. besides, big "wake up bets" on the river....mean business.

the adjustment has been slow, but is coming around.

400ish hands, up 2 BI's. played another 150 hands today, down 1 BI (KKvAA). i held KK...oh well.

more later.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

ultros8

12-29-2007, 11:07 AM

#33 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2007

Location: Bristol/Oxford, England

Posts: 23

I might be interested in doing this - I've been a regular at $100 and $200 NL full ring (not as big a volume of play as some people here, I played maybe 120k hands this year), but haven't played for about 3 months and don't think I'll be playing at 'real' stakes much for the forseeable future cos I just can't commit enough time to it. Also I just withdrew most of my roll to buy a car so can't really play at 1/2 now anyway. But I wouldn't mind playing 10k hands at microstakes now, it might be good fun!

I've only ever played on Stars and that's where all my moneys are, so that's where I'll do this. I'll try to play as many $10 NL 6M tables as I reasonably can (probably 8), so my winrate might not be too high! Also I'm kind of rusty atm but I'll see what I can do!

Chopper

12-29-2007, 01:19 PM

#34 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

come back and post both your "stats" and thoughts about the players.....please.

you are perfect for this "experiment." you ought to notice some real differences in the players and what they do. i'll be interested to hear what you had to do to adjust.

so far, i'm running like complete poo. i have about 1.5k hands in now, and am running about 18/11...plenty tight for these stakes. i am down a BI and a half. i have been oversetted and had my KK run into AA. i have also flopped two flushes that did not pay and had my KK cracked by a flopped set of 3's that i should have dropped, but couldnt. oh well.

thats all from "diary of shit cards" for now. things will turn. this wont last for 10k hands...i can guarantee that.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

ultros8

12-29-2007, 03:10 PM

#35 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2007

Location: Bristol/Oxford, England

Posts: 23

I just played my first 1k hands 8-tabling $10NL 6M, this is actually the first time I've ever played $10NL or lower since when I first built my roll I played SNGs until I had enough to play $25NL.

I played about 20/16, but my strategy was basically to play really tight in early position and out of the blinds and abuse everyone from the cutoff/button (I was 12/10 UTG but 28/25 on the button): I spent most of my time raising limpers and taking it down with a c-bet. I mostly only 3-bet with JJ+ AQ+ though because there weren't many open raises and plenty of people running 35/3 and stuff.

A few initial observations (I don't know how different Stars is to other sites, maybe this isn't universal, and maybe it'll be different in the evening):
- There are TONS of players who limp preflop and fold to a raise, or limp-call preflop and fold on the flop, so raise preflop and bet the flop! Also, feel free to bet a bit bigger when you actually hit the flop, no-one's going to notice.
- Players with seemingly tight stats still sometimes have a tendency to go crazy with weak hands (I got all in with AQ vs JJ on a Qxx flop and with KK vs QTo on a QJJ flop), so you should rarely be folding TPTK or an overpair.
- BUT, any time a scare card hits the turn/river and a weak opponent suddenly wakes up, they almost always have it - I guess that's common knowledge already. Thankfully they tend to suck at getting value and make a tiny bet so you don't get put to a tough decision!
- I probably overplayed my draws, losing a decent amount with 78cc on a Tc5c4x flop and with KQcc on a Jc7c4x flop when I actually had no fold equity and it would have been better to play passively.

I ran pretty hot, mostly because my AQ and AK kept making top pair and allowed me to win a few bets, and was up 4.5 buyins. I'll play another 1k hands this evening and see if it's any different.

Robb

12-29-2007, 03:59 PM

#36 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,072

Quote:

Originally Posted by ultros8

I played about 20/16, but my strategy was basically to play really tight in early position and out of the blinds and abuse everyone from the cutoff/button (I was 12/10 UTG but 28/25 on the button): I spent most of my time raising limpers and taking it down with a c-bet. I mostly only 3-bet with JJ+ AQ+ though because there weren't many open raises and plenty of people running 35/3 and stuff.

A few initial observations (I don't know how different Stars is to other sites, maybe this isn't universal, and maybe it'll be different in the evening):
- There are TONS of players who limp preflop and fold to a raise, or limp-call preflop and fold on the flop, so raise preflop and bet the flop! Also, feel free to bet a bit bigger when you actually hit the flop, no-one's going to notice.
- Players with seemingly tight stats still sometimes have a tendency to go crazy with weak hands (I got all in with AQ vs JJ on a Qxx flop and with KK vs QTo on a QJJ flop), so you should rarely be folding TPTK or an overpair.
- BUT, any time a scare card hits the turn/river and a weak opponent suddenly wakes up, they almost always have it - I guess that's common knowledge already. Thankfully they tend to suck at getting value and make a tiny bet so you don't get put to a tough decision!

Great post. This is stuff I've some of which I've learned the hard way, and especially the part about 3-betting I've been trying to incorporate into my game lately. I need 3-betting to be successful at NL25 I've decided, and I'm trying to learn which spots are best to do it from.

As you play, if you see some 3-betting spots and could post some HH's, I'd love to see 'em. Or just report a few over the next few days.

Good luck at the tables.

bigspenda73

12-29-2007, 04:46 PM

#37 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

I wish I could make some long drawn-out pooh bad post about beating horrible players and how I do it.

Frankly, it's pretty easy. I saw a thread on the other forum today where a guy won 40buyins at $25nl FR in one day!!!

I wish I had my PT stats, but I think lifetime I'm 10ptbb/100 at 10nl FR/6max and another 7.5ptbb/100 at 25nl6max/FR. The bulk of these hands were when I wasn't any good either.

Last 5k hands at $25nl 6max I've played I'm up 14 buy-ins. I play aggro too Chopper, very aggro. But I also value-bet thin and only semi-bluff, never full-out bluffing.

Chopper

12-29-2007, 08:12 PM

#38 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

all right, guys. thanks for all the updates. thats what this thread was designed for. many thanks to you, ultro. awesome comments. none of which i will disagree with, especially the "no FE" when holding a big draw. better to play passively? i say, yes. because you have no problems, usually, getting paid when you hit.

spenda and robb, many thanks, too.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

daven

12-29-2007, 11:05 PM

#39 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

and am running about 18/11...

I don't like this. TAG seems to work better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ultros8

BUT, any time a scare card hits the turn/river and a weak opponent suddenly wakes up, they almost always have it

yep.

Other thoughts.
*Semi-bluff more than normal. 50% scoop, and of the rest you stack when you hit. All good.
*Three-bet wide in position
*Fold to 3-bets unless you have AA/KK

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

Robb

12-30-2007, 01:24 AM

#40 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,072

Quote:

Originally Posted by ultros8

BUT, any time a scare card hits the turn/river and a weak opponent suddenly wakes up, they almost always have it

yep.

Other thoughts.
*Semi-bluff more than normal. 50% scoop, and of the rest you stack when you hit. All good.
*Three-bet wide in position
*Fold to 3-bets unless you have AA/KK[/quote]
3-bet wide means what? Could you give two or three examples?

"Fold to 3-bets..." is good advice, especially at NL25. At NL10, there are enough donkeys that QQ and AK can be reasonable calls/shoves for 3-bets under certain circumstances, but I'm convinced you are dominated at NL25 about 90% of the time if you don't follow this advice. Thanks ultro.

Chopper

01-17-2008, 08:45 PM

#41 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

been awhile for this one. just thought i'd throw out an update.

[img]

[/img]

[img]

[/img]

anyone else care to jump in?

i used both 5 and 10NL because i have been splitting time. i LOVE buying in deep against deep donkey money.

as you can see by the graph, though, i have run flat the past couple of days. that should even out. i was running sick-hot earlier...about 22 ptbb/100 over 2500 hands.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Pythonic

01-17-2008, 09:32 PM

#42 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2007

Location: In S-mart Swallowing Your Soul!

Posts: 586

Chopper, at work right now so I am unable to post my PT stats but I've played roughly 10,000 hands of 5NL 6max in the last 9 days and doing 12.25bb/100. My stats are 20/10/2

Never bet on a white man in the heavyweight division!

Pythonic

01-17-2008, 09:32 PM

#43 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2007

Location: In S-mart Swallowing Your Soul!

Posts: 586

Chopper, at work right now so I am unable to post my PT stats but I've played roughly 10,000 hands of 5NL 6max in the last 9 days and doing 12.25bb/100. My stats are 20/10/2

Never bet on a white man in the heavyweight division!

pgil

01-18-2008, 02:21 AM

#44 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1,103

over 3000 hands at 25NL FR on party I ran at 22/14 for 10.7 ptbb/100.

the biggest adjustments I had to make in coming from 100NL on stars had to do with people not folding anything, especially preflop. there was no such thing as a raise to isolate. it just didn't happen.

The nice thing is, once you know how ligthly someone is putting all of their chips in, it is a simple matter to make sure that you have a slightly better hand than their average felting hand, then just get it AI. When they are routinely going all the way with TPNK or second pair/underpair, overpairs, TPGK, 2pr, all of those hands that we get fairly often, they become a goldmine.

the other major difference I noticed was players were not making you pay for your mistakes nearly as much. if you call down with a second best hand you only lose a few more BB's, not 2/3 of a buyin.

They don't make you pay for draws, or really put you to tough decisions. the reason being, they aren't trying to manipulate you in any deep way. they aren't bluffing (unless they are always bluffing). there is no balance to their play so their hands are so much easier to read.

"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce

Chopper

01-18-2008, 03:58 AM

#45 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

thx, pgil. i appreciate that help very much.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

mantheman

01-29-2008, 03:13 PM

#46 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2006

Posts: 35

hey chopper - i was grinding on .01/.02 over 50k or so hands running at 20ptbb/100

check out my post somewhere else on this.. played pretty loose to get involved in action with the fishtank.. and with super-aggression with made hands/nuts. lots of stealing too..

ProZachNation

01-29-2008, 04:19 PM

#47 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Over there!

Posts: 801

Haven't read the other posts. The best way to beat them is to tighten your game preflop, trying to take down blinds a lot can get you in trouble, with the people who play K7s etc.

Post flop pure aggresion, AK on AXX flop, you can get someone with AX to get all in A LOT. Now this will be swingy because some of the time they will catch 2 pair etc.

Make them pay to draw to their flush and Straights. They love to hit a flush so give them really horrible odds chances are they will still call.

Do not bluff straight scare cards, but bluff flush scare cards(they are horrified/in love with the flush)

Right now I am playing 5nl, 3.6k hands 15ptbb/100

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrhappy333

I didn't think its Bold to bang some chick with my bro. but i guess so... thats +EV in my book.

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