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Drawing hands against raises preflop

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Lodogg

01-04-2006, 10:42 PM Post subject: Drawing hands against raises preflop

#1 (permalink)

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Join Date: Nov 2005

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When if ever is it correct to call a raise with the following hands (assume I am in late position)? If 2-3 people call the raise ahead of me? 1 on 1?

* suited connectors
*low pocket pairs (6-2)
*AXs

I go into this zone sometimes (especially if I am losing) when I will start overplaying these hands for a chance to double up. Anyone else have this same bad habit?

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EricE

01-04-2006, 10:56 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 894

It is almost always correct to call a < 8% stack raise with any pp looking for a set. The exception is if either of you are short stacked or if you don’t think your opponent will go deep with you should you hit. Good for 1-any number of callers.

Calling raises with SC is MUCH more situational. Against a lot of callers or against a really aggressive opponent it can be a good play. If you think your opponent will put in lots of $ even when he misses then calling with SC will allow you to get paid even with a single pair on an all ragged low board. I use it rarely; they just don’t hit that often.

Axs
I almost never call a real raise with Axs. You need lots of callers for this one.

Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL

DrDrei

01-04-2006, 11:00 PM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: Kingston, Ontario

Posts: 24

Against a raise, I would play low pocket pairs for the chance of a set so long as the raise is less than 5% of your current stack and less than 5% of your opponents stack

For Axs and suited connectors, again, I would think that the raise would have to be pretty small, and also you'd want a couple of other callers in there. The reason for this is that with pocket pairs you either hit trips on the flop or you're out. With drawing hands, you'll rarely get a straight or a flush on the flop, but you might get a draw to one. If there's a lot of players in the pot, you're much more likely to get good odds to draw after the flop than if you're heads up.

Also, I think position matters a lot here too. I'd play pocket pairs against a raise in any position, but Axs and pocket connectors I'd only play on the button or CO.

bunthorne

01-05-2006, 03:46 PM Post subject: Re: Drawing hands against raises preflop

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 147

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodogg

1. suited connectors - position is everything here. If you play these early you are risking raises and reraises which you cannot call. You mustn't commit too much of your stack with these - 5% is normal but the absolute maximum should be 10%. If there is a raise with 2 or 3 callers you could see the flop long as it isn't too expensive. You need as many players in the pot as possible. Fold to a reraise.

2. low pocket pairs - you can try these and can stand a raise as long as it is not huge, but if there is a reraise preflop you need to dump these. If you don't there is no guarantee that if you hit a set, which is the reason for playing these, then you might be up against a bigger set. The alternative is to move all-in to try and isolate anyone playing AK whom you are dominating. But do not get married to a small pocket pair.

3. Ax suited - many players weakness is to play this hand too often because they have learned that when they hit they can win a big pot. Hmmm. Being suited is only a slight advantage over being unsuited due to the number of times you will not flop the flush. Play it in late position but do not call a raise with it. Your stack will dwindle if you do. And if the flop comes down with those dream three suited cards, how much action do you think you are going to get? The thing which is worth than playing Ax suited is to play Kx suited as you are not guaranteed the nut flush!

BankItDrew

01-05-2006, 05:01 PM Post subject: Re: Drawing hands against raises preflop

#5 (permalink)

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BankItDrew will become famous soon enough

* suited connectors Call in late position for cheap with limpers in the pot - become a limper yourself. If raised, call if many others call and the raise isn't more than 5% of your stack.
*low pocket pairs (6-2) Same as above, except call in early position but fold to a substantial raise.
*AXs Only limp in late position.

The key similarity is this: If you do not flop a monster or a moster draw, get out of the hand. These hands are meant to destack your opponent. If you hit a strong draw and someone throws out a bet, don't be passive, try to win the pot through betting.

EricE

01-05-2006, 05:13 PM Post subject: Re: Drawing hands against raises preflop

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 894

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

If you hit a strong draw and someone throws out a bet, don't be passive, try to win the pot through betting.

I am curious about this. I never do this. I draw within my odds because my tables are loose enough that you cannot expect to push people out of the pot and therefore you only win when your draw comes in. So most of the time it is a losing play and just costs you money. So I guess I would caviat the above with: it depends on how many calling stations you have at your tables. If your tables are full of calling stations then don’t bet your draws like you have the nuts. Semi bluff them at times but you can’t get too aggressive with them.

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BankItDrew

01-05-2006, 06:14 PM

#7 (permalink)

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I can't stand drawing within my odds.

I tend to take down 70-80% of pots that I bet against when I have a strong draw BEFORE I see the river. Most people have to understand something - more often than not, no one really has that good of a hand. I take down small pot after small pot just because I'm betting at it with my strong draw.

The odd time I will loose a medium pot to someone with a good hand and I have missed my draw. But all of the small pots that I have won with my jack high flush draw have more than covered for them. I will quite often destack someone if I hit my draw because they were in the hand with a good hand to begin with, and my straight and/or flush is near undetectable!

The most profitable players at the tables are those who have perfected an aggressive style. I look at hard betting at a strong draw as investing in the river, while taking down pot after pot in the mean time.

Word to the wise - be careful on the river if you still have jack high.. this is where profitable play become -EV.

johnnyshaka

01-06-2006, 04:18 PM

#8 (permalink)

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Edmonton, AB

Posts: 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

I can't stand drawing within my odds.

Hmmm...that sounds rather flawed.

I understand the aggressive play when you are in position and trying to steal the pot...but when you are out of position and are facing a PS bet holding a nut flush draw, are you saying that you have no problem calling/re-raising everytime??

BankItDrew

01-06-2006, 06:16 PM

#9 (permalink)

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I wouldn't ever be in that position to begin with, because I wouldn't check the flop.

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johnnyshaka

01-06-2006, 06:47 PM

#10 (permalink)

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Edmonton, AB

Posts: 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

I wouldn't ever be in that position to begin with, because I wouldn't check the flop.

And if you get called and don't hit your flush on the turn...do you fire out another big bet?? What if you are called again...then what?? If you are doing this with the possibility of only hitting, say, a J-high flush, aren't you a little concerned that this guy is still in the pot chasing a better flush??

What if he re-raises you after the flop...do you fold, call, or go back at him with even more cash??

BankItDrew

01-06-2006, 06:53 PM

#11 (permalink)

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I thought we were talking nut flushes here.

If he comes back over the top on my flop bet I have to compare bets with stack sizes (which should be done after every bet). Sometimes I'll call and sometimes I'll come back over the top, depending on my read of this guy.

If the turn is a dud and I called his raise and I'm in EP, I'll usually fire out another bet, but it's the last time I invest anymore into the pot. No bluffing the river in EP.

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Drawing hands against raises preflop

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