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DJJunkPauds
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05-23-2008, 12:51 PM
Post subject: A draw-heavy flop?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 301
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Coming from a 50NL 6-max perspective.
I hear a lot that I should refrain from c-betting draw heavy flops, but what exactly constitutes a draw heavy flop? I mean technically every flop has some various back door draws, but at what point should I be thinking "Ooh, draw heavy, put the brakes on!". Here's a few examples that I'm not sure about; hopefully somebody with some experience can comment so I can get the idea:
QdJd7s
Ad4s6c
8d8c7h
AhKh7s
5h6h5s
Any rules of thumb?
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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1: very draw heavy. Mid/high cards with flush draw, OESDs, and even gutters that might call flop
2. Beautiful cbetting flop. One high card and 2 lows and rainbow
3. Meh semi-draw heavy, depends on what I have/villain to cbet
4. 2 high cards and only a flush draw, cbet
5. those cards are too low and pair up, not the greatest board but cbet
keep in mind this is like my general rule vs. unknowns, except for #3.
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DJJunkPauds
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 301
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That's a great help kmind, thanks.
About the paired flops, I'm always far more inclined to cbet them. My thinking is that it's one less way they can have pair, if they do have the trips, well that beats me just as good, and some people are far more willing to lay down their overcards/underpairs in this spot because "Oh no he has trips!".
You feel differently?
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zxqv8
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 79
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I heard a "protip" a while back that came from, I believe, Phil Gordon that tends to hold true mostly in tournaments, but even in cash games too. "The first one to bet at a paired board will typically take it down right there," or something to that effect. I think it applies to your question.
Of course, you have to consider who you're up against and what the circumstances are. Obviously you need to be more careful in an unraised pot against the blinds as they could have practically any two cards. And you have to consider a villains coldcalling range if you were the raiser, etc etc. Just don't follow it like a commandment and it'll probably be a useful tip.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds
That's a great help kmind, thanks.
About the paired flops, I'm always far more inclined to cbet them. My thinking is that it's one less way they can have pair, if they do have the trips, well that beats me just as good, and some people are far more willing to lay down their overcards/underpairs in this spot because "Oh no he has trips!".
You feel differently?
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Yeah completely agree to cbet them in most cases just the ones you put in your example have like flush and straight draws in there as well. You really want boards like A72r. No straight draws, no flush draws and opponent rarely has an Ace in his calling preflop range because most of them he'll 3bet. So if you bet and he raises (and isn't out of line) he most likely has a huge hand (set or someone who doesn't 3bet AK which is rare). A lot of people call with like mid SCs so the mid/high cards like up to 7 to Q kind of hit their range hard. So any like 9JQ two toned board sucks if we have like 22 because he most likely hit or is on a decent draw. We bet either knowing he can fold like mid/3rd pair or pair+a draw and stuff as well as lower pocket pairs. But a lot of people will call with like second pair + gutter/OESD and also flush draws of course. I don't know where this is going but I hope you can kind of see what I am saying. You have to think about their preflop calling range and then what kind of boards will they continue with often/rarely.
zxqv8 - yeah for sure because his range won't be wide enough but it's still all player/board dependent seeing if there are any other lines that may be even more profitable. As you move up stakes (I forgot what theorem it's called) but you'll see a lot of players outlevelling you and raising a cbet on a paired board knowing that you prob. don't have trips and even an overpair will get a little scared and could fold.
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