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EasyT
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03-24-2005, 07:58 PM
Post subject: Doubting my QQ Play
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Yo Mamma
Posts: 834
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I was in a $5 Sit-N-Go tourney today on Empire. Here's what happened.
I just made it to the final 3, so I'm in the money and smiling. I'm also the short stack with 1,900 chips. Blinds are 200/400. I'm in the big blind and get dealt QQ.
Player A on the button folds. Player B raises to 800 from the small blind. He's been raising 90% of the time from SB and Button. I have a big hand for the circumstance, so I push all in for 1,900. He calls, turns up QJo and we go to the board with me a huge favorite.
T,7,3.
K.
A.
So he caught lucky and made the straight. I went out of the tourney in 3rd. I'm okay with the way it went down, but keep wondering...
If I had slow played and just called pre-flop, I probably could have won with a bet or push on the flop. He may have called anyway and caught his runner-runner.
Am I wasting my time considering such alternatives? I mean, if the same board came out in the reverse order, I might have folded the best hand on the flop. But even then, I would still have some chips!
I got my chips all in when I was a big favorite. Perhaps that is the real goal. Good outcome or bad...if you got 'em in as the favorite, you played it right.
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danhole12
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 30
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Don't judge your play based on what cards fall.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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If you can get someone to call your push holding QQ v QJ, you did nothing wrong.
AA can get cracked by 72o if the flop comes 77x. Doesn't mean AA should avoid pushing against 72o.
- Jeffrey
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jobupoker
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Straight
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 111
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I've thought the same thing and more often than not I find that the Stop N Go technique is useful. (I believe thats whats it called) I read an article where Raymer talked about it. If you just call the preflop raise and choose to push on the flop no matter what then your chances of getting them to fold are greater then if you had pushed preflop.
This may not have worked here since the SB may have raised you on the flop anyway. I find this works best when I'm out of position and first to act.
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mimmons775
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 92
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theres nothing you can do about him hitting the straight there. You had all your money in as a huge favorite. It was the right play.
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"I guess if there wasnt luck involved id win everyone."
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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I might have tried the stop and go here, but the fact is if he called your all in with QJo, he was probably gonna call you down on the stop and go as well. That's because a stop and go looks exactly like a stone cold bluff, especially on that board. This is just a bad player sucking you out with a hand he should have folded to your all in. He was riding that puppy no matter what apparently.
He probably called your all in out of the emotion of getting re-raised when he raised. He thought he would get away with raising QJo and got caught, so he was angry and decided to race out of spite. I see that a lot. Either that or he has no idea how much of a dog QJo is heads up.
Given all that, the stop and go was your better option I believe. There was a slight chance he would have folded to you on that flop.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Manomanman
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 122
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Better question: assume that God tells you you're going to be a 95% favorite on the flop, so you want to extract maximum value. Is it better to get those extra 200-1000 chips, or not take the risk of getting eliminated and having your opponent fold? That is, do you want your guy to fold on the flop or do you want him to nurse your already crappy stack up just a few more BB?
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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I might have tried the stop and go here, but the fact is if he called your all in with QJo, he was probably gonna call you down on the stop and go as well. That's because a stop and go looks exactly like a stone cold bluff, especially on that board. This is just a bad player sucking you out with a hand he should have folded to your all in. He was riding that puppy no matter what apparently.
He probably called your all in out of the emotion of getting re-raised when he raised. He thought he would get away with raising QJo and got caught, so he was angry and decided to race out of spite. I see that a lot. Either that or he has no idea how much of a dog QJo is heads up.
Given all that, the stop and go was your better option I believe. There was a slight chance he would have folded to you on that flop.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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You played it right. Stop being so results oriented.
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AllinLife
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 530
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
I might have tried the stop and go here, but the fact is if he called your all in with QJo, he was probably gonna call you down on the stop and go as well. That's because a stop and go looks exactly like a stone cold bluff, especially on that board. This is just a bad player sucking you out with a hand he should have folded to your all in. He was riding that puppy no matter what apparently.
He probably called your all in out of the emotion of getting re-raised when he raised. He thought he would get away with raising QJo and got caught, so he was angry and decided to race out of spite. I see that a lot. Either that or he has no idea how much of a dog QJo is heads up.
Given all that, the stop and go was your better option I believe. There was a slight chance he would have folded to you on that flop.
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you are being result oriented, this is no where close situation for stop n go
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"Is there any chance I'm going to lay this 9-high baby down? That's really not my style."
- Gus Hansen
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eeeee
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 906
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AllinLife
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
Given all that, the stop and go was your better option I believe. There was a slight chance he would have folded to you on that flop.
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you are being result oriented, this is no where close situation for stop n go |
I totally agree with AllinLife.
With three guys left? You want him to call an all-in against your QQ, and 80% of the time you double up and crawl out of third place. This hand wasn't even early in the tournament, where someone could question you risking it all early. This hand was a bad beat, and you put your chips in when you had the best of it. Stop-n-go is a fine play, but you aren't stealing here, you're going for the coup-d'grace.
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I'm a know-it-all.
No, really.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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That was fine. I'll give an example of a situation where many beginners will make a mistake of pushing QQ. This would be for a full ring game.
Opponent player2 is a solid player. Stacks are deep.
you raise 4BB UTG, player 2 raises to 10BB you call.
Flop 7 J 2 rainbow
you bet 20BB(almost pot size), Player 2 raises all in.
Easy fold. There is pretty much no hand here you could hope to beat with this level of aggression on that flop.
Then there is the possibility that he is a tricky player repping the over pair putting you on AK or something, but don't count on it.. a fold is almost always the correct move here IMO.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Reminds me of a ring hand today.
$200 NL, $1/$2 blinds.
2 or 3 limpers to me. I make it $12 with rockets. First limper re-raises to $50, I push and he calls off his last $50. He had QQ...
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Toasty
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England UK
Posts: 1,522
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Yeah was a text book play, you can't win them all. The only alternative would be to call and push on the flop, but I'm pushing PF 90% of the time.
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Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AllinLife
you are being result oriented, this is no where close situation for stop n go
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There's no way you could know the stop and go would be the best option if you were in the hand. I would push my whole stack as well. All I'm saying is that at the end of the hand, it seems apparent the stop and go was the best option given the results.
I do agree with you that when you get QQ with a short stack your looking to double up, you push. It did cook him this time however.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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PUSH & add this guy to the friend list.
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