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Outlaw

03-12-2009, 12:58 AM Post subject: Don't level yourself

#1 (permalink)

Full House

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Sometimes we think too deeply in micros when all we need to do to level a villain is think on level two and three. Any thinking beyond this is overkill and gets us in stupid spots.

99% of opponents are playing their cards and have no clue you know what cards they are playing. To exploit them, all we have to do is know their range (which doesn't really vary).

Even if they do get to level two thinking, they think we think like they do. And if we know how they play, we know what they think we have and can further exploit them.

Simple ABC poker that adjusts to static opponent ranges and takes a villains actions at face value wins the day at micros.

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WillburForce

03-12-2009, 01:11 AM

#2 (permalink)

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WillburForce will become famous soon enough

is there a need to adjust at micros???

just wait for a hand. Bet it.

Normski

sil693

03-12-2009, 01:12 AM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Location: Birmingham, UK

Posts: 609

even thinking about levels of thinking at microstakes will more than likely result in you leveling yourself. think of ranges ranges ranges.

ABC all the way.

Taicho

03-12-2009, 03:43 AM

#4 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Bloomington, IL

Posts: 102

What confuses me is all this talk of "static ranges" in the micros...from my experience, many micro players will play any two cards and call raises with a wide range.

I try to get a read on a player and figure out some sort of range but ultimately it comes down to "I hope he didn't call with Q3 this time."

S1x

03-12-2009, 03:57 AM

#5 (permalink)

Two Pair

Join Date: Mar 2009

Posts: 44

It seems pretty obvious; never assume that somebody will play a certain way until you have solid proof of it. If everybody plays a lot of hands yet nobody notices I'm playing super tight, I'm fine with only playing top hands as long as I still get action.

The only time you may want to assume is when you first enter a table with people you haven't seen. In that case, maybe for a few hands I'll act like everybody's loose passive, but I quickly find out more and adjust appropriately.

Micro2Macro

03-12-2009, 04:12 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Taicho

wait till you get to 10nl. half the tables on stars have VPIP's lower than 15. if anything putting people on ranges is easier at that level.

"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

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http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

Kijjo

03-12-2009, 07:17 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Alabama

Posts: 554

I've carefully calculated and categorize the ranges for micros - please don't argue, the following is undeniable:

For 40% the players in the micros, the range is everything. Tonight I watched a guy CALL allin preflop with K3o. I watched a guy CALL a 3bet preflop with J2o. I watched a guy shove the flushed board flop with 24s (of another suit). These are just the ones that I remember off the top of my head!!! Any hand, any time, the range is 100%.
For another 30%, all you have to do is watch what they do when the flop comes, you'll know what they have.
For 17%, they're calling no matter what, 'cause they're making sure you're not bluffing.
For 12.9%, they're going allin with an underpair or some overcards, cause you don't know what they have!!!
The last 0.1%? Those are FTR members like yourself who are soon to be leaving this pit of wretched bingo players.

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#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
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03-12-2009, 10:08 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

People outlevel themselves all the time, at any stake :O
I saw a cardrunners video where the guy folded second pair top kicker (AJ on a KJxxx board) on the river because his line was "obviously a made hand" so his opponent wouldn't expect him to fold it
then his opponent says he had AJ in chat and the guy goes "well I'm not going to necessarily believe that just because he said it"

so this is good advice

Outlaw

03-12-2009, 01:22 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 1,033

Quote:

Originally Posted by sil693

even thinking about levels of thinking at microstakes will more than likely result in you leveling yourself. think of ranges ranges ranges.

ABC all the way.

Thinking beyond level 3 in most cases will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillburForce

is there a need to adjust at micros???

just wait for a hand. Bet it.

Yes, we must adjust at any level. But we know our opponents aren't adjusting so we can play straightforward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taicho

What I meant by static ranges is that the average player we meet at microstakes plays the same range all the time no matter what the position or table dynamics and never varies.

Whether they are weak tight or weak loose, they never adjust and this makes it a lot easier to figure out their range/playing style... sooo we never need to worry about them figuring out what we are doing... there's no need to ever readjust. Once we adjust to their style we seldom have to vary from what's effective against them.

Example: After 50 hands I look around my table and see...

Player 1:50/0/.5
Player 2: 80/50/5.0
Player 3: 40/2/1.2
Player 4: ME in the God seat
Player 5: 15/3/1.6
Player 6: 8/0/0.0

So now I have an idea of how people at my table play.. and I've adjusted to their play to maximize my potential profit. I know after 500 hands these guys stats probably won't have changed much.. sure some of them might have been card dead or had the deck hitting them in the face.. but typically, you can figure this out by betting patterns and not just stats alone.

So I valuebet player 1 and never bluff him, laying down to any aggression without the goods. I isolate player 2 and call him down with any piece, picking the right spots to trap. There's really no need to 3-bet this guy as the money can go in post flop anytime I want anyways and we have no fold equity. I play straight foward against player 3 since I know his cards on every hand. I steal relentlessly from player 5 and 6 and hope they pick up a "playable" hand when I have the nuts.

The whole point of this that believing our opponents are manipulating us or cultivating an image is ridiculous. We should take things at face value and play accordingly.

Another example: We have been stealing from player 6 every time for the past 4 orbits. We pick up AQs on the button and he 3-bets. We go into the tank and think about what happened the past 4 orbits and how we been playing 35% of pots.. hmm this guy saw us show down 108 for a weird straight against player 2 three hands ago.. he MUST think I am weak here and is 3-betting a huge range to "shut me down"! So we call.. the flop is Q-3-3. The money gets all in when a blank hits the turn and our opponent flips up KK. We have just leveled ourselves.

sil693

03-12-2009, 01:36 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Location: Birmingham, UK

Posts: 609

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

There's really no need to 3-bet this guy as the money can go in post flop anytime I want anyways and we have no fold equity.

this makes it IDEAL to 3bet this guy for value.

no need to 3bet bluff.

Outlaw

03-12-2009, 07:21 PM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 1,033

Quote:

Originally Posted by sil693

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

There's really no need to 3-bet this guy as the money can go in post flop anytime I want anyways and we have no fold equity.

this makes it IDEAL to 3bet this guy for value.

no need to 3bet bluff.

Exactly, no 3-bet bluffs needed.

You can 3bet if its necessary to isolate.. but these types of players are the only ones I slowplay monsters with.. let's say he raises to 5-10xBB (which these players with these stats tend to do) I smooth call with KK, AA.. he would never believe a tight player like us would not raise those hands.. so when he hits his top/middle/bottom pair, he gives us all his money.

I like to find a way to get all my money in against these guys quick.. because they go broke too quick and I want to be the one extracting it.

sil693

03-12-2009, 07:28 PM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Location: Birmingham, UK

Posts: 609

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

these types of players are the only ones I slowplay monsters with

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

I like to find a way to get all my money in against these guys quick

WAT?

Outlaw

03-12-2009, 09:51 PM

#13 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 1,033

Quote:

Originally Posted by sil693

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

these types of players are the only ones I slowplay monsters with

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

I like to find a way to get all my money in against these guys quick

WAT?

You will find that your biggest profits come from reckless idiots.. savor the time they are on your table.

03-13-2009, 03:34 AM

#14 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by sil693

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

these types of players are the only ones I slowplay monsters with

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

I like to find a way to get all my money in against these guys quick

WAT?

You will find that your biggest profits come from reckless idiots.. savor the time they are on your table.

Let me get this straight

You don't 3b for value against people who never fold to 3b?

Fnord

03-13-2009, 05:44 AM

#15 (permalink)

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Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

You need to take it up a level or two to really crush any game.

You should always be thinking about your opponent's ranges, playstyle, etc. and be attacking weakness. Not just waiting for hands.

That said, you don't need to take it much further than that. That is how people out-level themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Outlaw

03-13-2009, 09:20 PM

#16 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 1,033

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by sil693

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

these types of players are the only ones I slowplay monsters with

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

I like to find a way to get all my money in against these guys quick

WAT?

You will find that your biggest profits come from reckless idiots.. savor the time they are on your table.

Let me get this straight

You don't 3b for value against people who never fold to 3b?

I never said I didn't.. but sometimes its okay to smooth call these guys when you know they are hyper-agressive postflop to disguise your hand.. sure they can suckout sometimes but if I give up 5% equity to assure myself of getting it in against him, I am all for it.

The above was just an example of how to level opponents without OVER thinking things.. not a guide on how to play a specific style of opponent.

Outlaw

03-13-2009, 09:22 PM

#17 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 1,033

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

ding ding ding.. thanks for instantly getting the point of the post.

You don't need to get tricky.. you just need to be 1-2 steps ahead.. if you try getting 3+ steps ahead, you only end up trying to fight a battle of wits against unarmed opponents.

03-14-2009, 12:34 PM

#18 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by sil693

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

these types of players are the only ones I slowplay monsters with

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

I like to find a way to get all my money in against these guys quick

WAT?

You will find that your biggest profits come from reckless idiots.. savor the time they are on your table.

Let me get this straight

You don't 3b for value against people who never fold to 3b?

If they're hyper-aggressive postflop then do you really think they're folding top pair in a 3b pot? Especially since it only takes two streets of betting to get them all in.

Outlaw

03-14-2009, 12:50 PM

#19 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 1,033

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by sil693

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

these types of players are the only ones I slowplay monsters with

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

I like to find a way to get all my money in against these guys quick

WAT?

You will find that your biggest profits come from reckless idiots.. savor the time they are on your table.

Let me get this straight

You don't 3b for value against people who never fold to 3b?

If they're hyper-aggressive postflop then do you really think they're folding top pair in a 3b pot? Especially since it only takes two streets of betting to get them all in.

I have no idea.. it depends on the player and what they've done exactly in the past 50 hands. We should do whatever is most effective to take their money and nothing more and nothing less.

sil693

03-14-2009, 01:44 PM

#20 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Location: Birmingham, UK

Posts: 609

WAT.seifugasldvuaghsiluS;

If they're not folding to 3bets, we HAVE to 3bet them for value - its just stupid not to. We can build a pot with way the best hand. And what is this give up 5% equity bullshit. If he's that much of an aggro, he's gonna be happy to stackoff in a 3bet pot as it is, regardless if we "slowplay" our nut hands preflop.

This thread tilts me so hard.

He doesnt fold to 3 bets a lot, therefore we 3bet him for value and not as a bluff. We have no need to try and trap him, as he'll just hang himself anyway postflop.

/thread.

sil693

03-14-2009, 01:47 PM

#21 (permalink)

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and, smooth calling with the nuts vs. a loose player who doesnt fold to 3bets so we have a disguised hand and can look to trap him post flop IS overthinking at the micros.

03-14-2009, 02:30 PM

#22 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by sil693

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

these types of players are the only ones I slowplay monsters with

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

I like to find a way to get all my money in against these guys quick

WAT?

You will find that your biggest profits come from reckless idiots.. savor the time they are on your table.

Let me get this straight

You don't 3b for value against people who never fold to 3b?

If they're hyper-aggressive postflop then do you really think they're folding top pair in a 3b pot? Especially since it only takes two streets of betting to get them all in.

I have no idea.. it depends on the player and what they've done exactly in the past 50 hands. We should do whatever is most effective to take their money and nothing more and nothing less.

3b is the most effective way to take their money, so why are we flatting?

Outlaw

03-14-2009, 03:27 PM

#23 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 1,033

Quote:

Originally Posted by sil693

and, smooth calling with the nuts vs. a loose player who doesnt fold to 3bets so we have a disguised hand and can look to trap him post flop IS overthinking at the micros.

I am sorry you are tilted. But to be honest, I didn't start the argument. The point of this thread was not to be a guide on how to play specific situations, it was just making a point to not over think things at micros. You make your read, form a plan, and go with it.

My only thought here is that maybe you are stuck at level two? I believe level 3 is the perfect level to think on at micros. There is no need to go beyond that.. and be thankful! its hard work!! If you don't understand levels here they are:

Level 1- What do I have?
Level 2- What does my opponent have
Level 3- What does my opponent think I have
Level 4- What does my opponent think that I think they have
Level 5- What does my opponent think that I think they think I have
etc etc etc (for more on level 4+ thinking, head to the high stakes forum)

As you can see, level three is where you can profit most from a laggy super-aggressive at micros.. show him weakness and he pounces on you like a lion.. show him strength and he can turn into a whimpering kitten. With our strongest hands, I want him to be a lion when we get to postflop play. Kittens hang on to their $ more than their momma's fattest teet.

Now let's say his stats are 85/40/1.5.. then I 3-bet the dickens out of him with the top 1/3 of his range.

I hope this helps clear it up for you.

O

Muzzard

03-14-2009, 03:35 PM

#24 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Cheshire, UK

Posts: 1,843

If he's not folding to 3bet anyway and can't fold a pair post flop, whatsthe point of flatting?

You say don't over think, then you post stuff in this thread which is the epitome of overthinking.

At the leve you are playing right now, most ppl are only thinking about what hand they have. They are not thinking about anything else. Don't over complicate it.

sil693

03-14-2009, 03:52 PM

#25 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Location: Birmingham, UK

Posts: 609

lol, patronisingaments. nh sir. gl with your levels.

03-14-2009, 05:39 PM

#26 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

what about when you 3b, he doesn't flop a pair, and folds? you gain the 12bb
what if you flat and he decides to c/f the flop? you gain 3bb

now if he was going to cbet, maybe in that case you'll still get 12bb
but think about it this way: since you 3b preflop it is natural for you to cbet, so an aggressive opponent might raise you with air on a low flop or call one street, so now we're not just talking about 12bb when he c/f the flop, but sometimes his entire stack without him even hitting a hand

it's much harder to get someone's entire stack in in a raised pot
another consideration is reverse implied odds
when he has a small pair and we flat, sure, we might pick off a cbet and take 1/10 of his stack
but sometimes he'll stack us

if we 3b and he calls anyway, now if he wants to float us or raise us with his small pair it's going to cost him most of his buyin so it more than compensates the loss of a buyin when you do get stacked

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