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bigslikk
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08-03-2007, 04:05 AM
Post subject: Donkstakes- Should I stop raising preflop?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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I've always been a fan of the preflop raise. AQ in mp? We're raising. Pocket 8's on the button? Yeah let's open it up big. Thing is, at the loose (gambol!) table I play at, preflop raises mean nothing. Unless you shove, you're going to get several callers (and sometimes even if you do).
This table might seem like easy money, but it's not. The players there are not complete donks; in fact, many play tight-aggressive postflop play. The troubling feature is that mostly any two cards work preflop. I'll get into some examples.
*oh yeah and these (live) games are eight to ten people on most days.*
Example 1
A 3x raise UTG (meaningless, JT looks like the nuts at this loose table) and 4 limpers behind. I'm on the button with big slick offsuit (a certain favorite). From my starting stack of 50BB, I've grinded up to 70. avg stack still around 50BB. I re-raise to the size of the pot, 15BB (hoping to take all the dead money).
UTG and UTG+1 immediately call, the rest fold. (with like q8 and 9Ts)
Here's the thing- despite my best efforts, I simply cannot take any pots down preflop. If I'm confident in my hand, I like to raise after limpers. Many people at my table in fact do this- they make it a weakish 3BB or 4BB to go after 2-3 limpers (and no one folds).
My question is- is there really any point in these non-isolating "pot-sweeteners"? (the raise is just enlarging the pot, not isolating). Even my ball-busters with AQ, AK, pocket jacks get called down. The stacks are shallow enough too so that any sizeable raise preflop (like my 15 reraise) almost commits me to the pot.
In a game where I'm 100% confident in having the best postflop skills at the table (let's say hypothetically, though ... also in fact. I've played with these specific guys a TON). What does a raise accompish? No raises are big enough to achieve any isolation. Raising does not take "control" of the hand as many donks at the table are oblivious to anything beyond the two cards in front of them. Raising for value is somewhat nil... as 4 or 5 way pots offer little significant value to anyone... and the variance is HUGE. Also, any rediculously large raises (enough to isolate, possibly) pot commit everyone who pays the price. I'm wondering (and I'm hoping to be convinced otherwise):
Should I just stop raising preflop?
Note: Players are of course more likely to "get stacked" / "go broke" in raised v. unraised pots, but the difference is not huge IMO.
Plz help FTR!! remember its shallow stack poker. (50BB, not TOO much play...) Thanks for the help.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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You build a pot here to set-up the stack to pot ratio where your hand plays best. Betting the pot is silly. You're raising to set-up the pot size you want to play and perhaps get the field down to just the true blue muppets and hands that can stand enough heat to see a flop.
Hands like AA-QQ, AK, AQ, KQ, etc. (depending on how far down the domination tree you want to go), play best with one or two pot sized bets behind.
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rubixstreub
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 887
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Interesting question and one I run into often at the micro stakes. Here's where my head goes, and I'm curious if my thinking is correct.
Honestly I'm happy to raise AKo in position against limpers as it usually only has 3 outcomes. Lets say two players limp, I raise 6BB and they both call.
1. If flop comes Kxx I'm value betting all the way. If one of the limpers leads the flop I'm raising to push out draws and hopefully isolate. Where I run into trouble is these same players will chase their draws regardless of odds and this can sometimes lead to an awkward River, especially if their short stacked.
2. If the flop comes all unders I tend to check behind against 2 or more players and C-bet heads up. I usually get called at which point I'll give up on the hand unimproved as the players at micro stakes will call down with any piece of the board.
3. If I get played back at strong at any point, I think more often than not I'm behind. Granted I do stack some folks overplaying their weaker TP but the majority of the time I lose a lot of money vs. opponents playing irrational hands PF and are hitting highly disguised 2 pair or better. For the most part players don't play back at you at these micro levels unless they have a big hand. What worries me is this will make me completely predictable/exploitable if I ever move up.
So basically what I take from Fnords post is value bet the crap out of these strong hands when you hit?
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bigslikk
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Hands like AA-QQ, AK, AQ, KQ, etc. (depending on how far down the domination tree you want to go), play best with one or two pot sized bets behind.
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I don't understand this. Say you have 2 pot-sized bets behind (after preflop action) with AKo. Flop misses v. 3 opponents. Didn't you just lose a third of you stack?
All I want is a real reason to raise at a table where stacks are shallow and preflop, players are loose as hell. Also, I already know how to play QQ+ preflop. Clearly jam at this retarded table and get 1 or 2 fish on the line. However most of the time, obviously, I'm not playing QQ+. I'm still unconvinced.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigslikk
Didn't you just lose a third of you stack?
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This is a terrible way to think about cash NLHE unless you're unable to re-buy for a comperable stack.
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Lithium
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 79
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Assuming you are raising hands that should be raised, you want callers, not isolation against a single opponent. The only time I raise to isolate is with a small (22-66) pocket pair. Otherwise, I am ecstatic when I get 4 or 5 calls for my 4-5xbb raise. If I miss the flop and am unable to float or take it down with a stab, then I lay it down. But you should be best after the flop often enough to make up for those lost pots.
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bigslikk
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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But why raise at all? Like I said, the preflop value of, say, Ace-king against 4-5 opponents (with random garbage) is slim. Why raise I ask?
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigslikk
But why raise at all? Like I said, the preflop value of, say, Ace-king against 4-5 opponents (with random garbage) is slim. Why raise I ask?
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because you (most likely) have the best hand when you are putting the money in. Thats really all that matters in the long run. If you want to narrow the feild, raise bigger. Maybe experiment with opening the pot for 6bbs instead of 4? maybe its 7 or 8 that will work?
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigslikk
Why raise I ask?
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In a loose game, to set-up a favorable pot size for your hand and hence an unfavorable pot size for your opponents' hands.
In Small Stakes Limit you raise for immediate value.
In Small Stakes No Limit you raise to set-up value.
Small suited trash want position and lots of money behind.
Small pairs want lots of money behind.
Medium pairs want even more money behind or very little if they figure to be good.
Big pairs want little money behind.
AK wants little money behind.
AQ/AJ/KQ/etc want a couple bets behind or so.
You win the pre-flop battle by tending to get your way with the pot more often than your opponents.
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bigslikk
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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Wow nice post, thanks. I understand the reasoning behind how much money you want behind, all except for medium pairs. Is it because they're hard to play postflop?
Also do you know of any places in which I could read more about "set-up" value? If it's more general knowledge I'd appreciate some help. I've never really thought about money behind much. That is, past the "deep stacks- connectors, pairs, draws," and "shallow stacks: big pairs and big paint only".
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigslikk
Wow nice post, thanks. I understand the reasoning behind how much money you want behind, all except for medium pairs. Is it because they're hard to play postflop?
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Medium pairs benefit from set over set and tend to hold more often than smaller pairs. Hence somthing like 99 is a pretty amazing hand 1000bb deep.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigslikk
Also do you know of any places in which I could read more about "set-up" value? If it's more general knowledge I'd appreciate some help. I've never really thought about money behind much. That is, past the "deep stacks- connectors, pairs, draws," and "shallow stacks: big pairs and big paint only".
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Ed Miller's new book.
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bigslikk
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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I was just thinking a little more about preflop pot control / "setting up" pots. Aren't these varied raises going to make my cards transparent? What can I do to control the pot yet remain deceptive?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigslikk
Aren't these varied raises going to make my cards transparent?
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Your opponents suck too much to worry about it and even if they didn't there are way to mix-up and balance your ranges a bit. Once you think this through, you'll understand why I haven't been raising UTG in these games.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigslikk
What can I do to control the pot yet remain deceptive?
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Play 77 like you would play AA-QQ/AK once a blue moon. Over-limp AA with aggro monkeys remaining act pre-flop. etc.
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bigslikk
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
you'll understand why I haven't been raising UTG in these games.
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I'm not sure. Is it because it narrows your range too much? At my table, an UTG raise doesn't get much respect anyway. I'd prob be safe with it anyway, maybe...
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gingerwizard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,815
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigslikk
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
you'll understand why I haven't been raising UTG in these games.
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I'm not sure. Is it because it narrows your range too much? At my table, an UTG raise doesn't get much respect anyway. I'd prob be safe with it anyway, maybe... |
I think he means that an UTG raise will leave you OOP and with lots of money behind. Raising late into a limped pot means you raise more, have less behind and have position.
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This is not my signature. I just write this at the bottom of every post.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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in 50bbs games tp is the absolute nuts.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Raising might be right depending on game conditions. I generally start out slow out of position since I don't know who is going to be in the pot and such. It leaves the option of making tight pre-flop folds and gives me a strong range to fight steals out of the blinds.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Continue raising preflop, just fold more often postflop.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Narrow your preflop raising range to a more premium set of hands, and even fold some hands you might normally play. Where I might raise KJo on the button with one limper ahead of me at a reasonably tight 100NL table, I would limp or open fold it at a loose table, depending on the aggression surrounding me.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Listen to Fnord he's spot on.
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bigslikk
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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The table I play at is universally loose preflop. 6/8 opponents play all sorts of face-rags, baby aces, and 2-gapper suited rags. Two maybe have solid ranges, but are extremely passive preflop. The loose players are generally passive preflop (its contagious, and people are scared to raise, since this rare preflop move "gives your hand away"). Players will make raises preflop with nothing less than premiums. (raising ranges are AJ+, 99+ from any position).
So basically, the players play almost any garbage preflop out of boredom / flopitus (maybe i'll flop a boat with 35!!). Players are either scared raise or like to "trap", limping with anything from J60 to pocket jacks, pocket aces. When someone finally raises, they have a solid ranges and are raising so as "not to get sucked out on" (lol?).
Postflop is player dependent and much too detailed to explain, but let's just say its pretty easy to stack someone with a good hand (trips or better, even aces up).
Here's my image: I'm considered some "crazy raiser who raisies every hand" because of my preflop aggresion. I'm basically raising my "big paint" hands b/c I'm trying to narrow the field (usually failing, hilariously, no matter what the raise) and also "shallowing the stacks" so implied odds of trash v. my paint are gone. Basically, build a big pot so I can hit a big pair on the flop and take it down w/o much play.
I am limping drawing hands (suited ace, med. connectors, paint). I'm also calling KT, JT etc., either weaker or more drawy type hands. (I'm not going nuts with KT, or even KJ that much when quality hands are sometimes limped.
The only trouble is that my raises (with paint) get many callers. and the stacks are so shallow (50BB at start) that a HUGEASS pot is built, and I'm having to fold unfavorable flops, so... my stack will increase or diminish quickly, and at random. If it diminishes to, say, 20-25BB, I find myself playing even tighter (so as to push preflop or postflop) and getting anted to death. Many of these sessions I'm playing to break even. Some of 'em I'm up huge, but only If I build a good enough stack (after which I can dominate).
My 4-6x BB raises might be to high. I'm thinkin, should I raise to 2-3x BB with , say, KQ, or AJ from late? My raises fail to limit the field, and methinks a 12-15 BB pot on the flop is just as good as a 20-30BB pot postflop (with less variance). thoughts?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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If I can play hands like AJ, KQ and such with one or two pot sized bets behind all night, woooohooo!
Just bring in enough money to re-buy, play it a little slower deep and don't worry at all about stacking off. Just blast away when you hit a flop and don't bluff much multi-way when you don't. So much dead money is going into the pot that it doesn't matter much how obvious your strategy is.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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bigslikk, i only vary my raises depending on what I think is perfect for getting it heads up... no more, no less. if 4-6xbb raises are getting callers at your table by more than one villain, i'd increase the raise size.
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
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