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minSim
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11-02-2008, 06:00 PM
Post subject: Donked into an A high flop, 3bet pot
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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hand 1
Villain 61/17/4.3 over 70 hands. No reads or stats on 3bets.
Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer Game#21695837330
SB ($21.90)
BB ($7.70)
UTG ($33.35)
UTG+1 ($34.70)
CO ($28.45)
Hero ($28.70)
Dealt to Hero Q 8
fold, fold, CO raises to $1, Hero raises to $3, call, fold, call,
FLOP ($9.25) A 6 2
SB bets $1.25, hero ?
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lolpwnt
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 57
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You don't need to get tricky by 3betting a wide range vs a donk. Fold pre, pick a 23/20 with a 40 ats to 3bet here.
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 5,040
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why did you 3bet pre?
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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3betting (bluffing in general) vs. loose donks is usually bad. I also 3bet polarized anyways so I wouldn't 3bet this hand but that's just my preference I guess. I guess as for the hand you can raise/fold since his range is still going to be wide.
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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3bet with rags against the calling station is awful. Wait this guy out until you hit the set with an A on the board. You'll stack him every time.
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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fold pre and save yourself a lot of $ and trouble lol
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Sugar Nut
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: grinderschool.com
Posts: 42
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I don't mind 3betting these guys with a wide range for value. Q8s, however is not included in this range.
As played my range for continuing (either calling or shoving - minraising is an option aswell tho) is probably any A and any draw. Q8s is not included in this range however.
Sugar Nut
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sugar Nut
I don't mind 3betting these guys with a wide range for value. Q8s, however is not included in this range.
As played my range for continuing (either calling or shoving - minraising is an option aswell tho) is probably any A and any draw. Q8s is not included in this range however.
Sugar Nut
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Thanks, seems like a solid flop plan.
I agree with all that 3betting Q8s is far from great against this opponent. But 5 people saying nothing but that seems a bit overkill. It's not like it's the end of the world doing it once in a while, IP, if I want to get a feeling for how villain responds to 3bet's and cbets in 3bet pots. If villains folding lightly OOP to either of those two (which I didn't know yet), you can rep quite a lot with Q8s and aren't doing that bad against a calling range. And it's just preflop.
I personally missed a 3rd person calling while reviewing this hand, which makes it an easy fold. I raised to 6 at the time, got called and folded to his turn lead. Pretty bad hand by me.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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We all said 3betting here is bad because we all agree with that and that's the first thing that pops up in our head. We also added other advice that you seem to have missed.
I, too, missed the other caller making this a fold. But HU I'd go with my original plan.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Sorry kmind, I missed your raise/folding advice, my bad, soz.
I also really don't want to come in being harsh or something. It just surprised me so many people only said someting about preflop (excluding you and Sugar Nut), while my question was for the flop decision.
Fwiw, I totally agree this type of opponent is bad to 3bet light at all. But generally, if you want to 3bet light, IP with Q8s isn't such a bad play, IMO. The flop will be A/K high about 45% so you can credibly rep AK. Flopping a Q is ok against JJ/TT. Plus the preflop folds ofcourse. The tough part is being dominated by AQ, KQ.
I really have thought pretty deeply about this. I have outlined my reasons in spoonitnows 3bet thread a while ago (not the recent one, the one before). Spoon disagreed with me, while I'm still not convinced by his reasons, so take it as you wish.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by minSim
But generally, if you want to 3bet light, IP with Q8s isn't such a bad play, IMO.
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This is true against people who are going to fold big offsuit cards, but call with premium hands since its a bit straighty and a bit flushy so you have a chance to hit quite a few nut hands against something like AK or QQ and you are likely to make him fold stuff like KQ.
Against this guy though Id much rather have something like KQo. Q8s is barely better than a random hand and this guy isnt folding anything that dominates you. You beat him by having an ace with a higher kicker than his A8 imo, not by fighting over the small pots.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Out of real interest; Pelion, what's your preflop game plan against a 50/30?
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Sorry for sounding harsh too, I was just tired.
Regardless, I 3bet pretty polarized and am pretty profitable with 3bets. You do raise some good points with Q8s but I usually just like to play more hands that are easier to play and I still think Q8 will get you into more difficult spots than say 45s.
I agree that we can 3bet these types of guys pretty often, but they should basically always be for value. Meaning your value range obv. goes up.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by minSim
Out of real interest; Pelion, what's your preflop game plan against a 50/30?
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Id try to isolate reraise with lots of 2 big card hands (probably KTo and stuff like that although I dont have pokerstove with me to check out actual percentages) and also probably Axs and 77+. Id call with stuff like 67s and probably 67o depending on just how "too much" he calls postflop.
Basically 2 big cards (or cards that stand to win relatively often Vs a random hand) have more immediate value and cards with potential to hit nut hands lose alot of semibluff value but gain alot of implied odds value.
Imo what you did was really a semibluff, and I dont think Id try any kind of bluff against someone so loose.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Thanks Pelion, that seems like a solid plan indeed.
Is there a big difference in your 3betting IP and OOP, vs this type of villain? (i.e. more or less difference compared to a TAG type)
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killerkebab
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 149
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imo he's hit an ace and he's not giving it up. Fold and wait for another spot.
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